Dragon No. 319 arrived today

[reiella]

The avangions are one possible source, but they would have to have recontacted the elemental spirits who gave the Sorcerer-kings their power in the first place. The SK's can't grant templars spells by right, or by their nature as half-dragons - it was part of an outsider pact they made centuries ago, and the outsiders are no longer around to contact.

Hmm, I had thought that the transformation spell is what bound the living vortice to the SK.

Anycase, that still leaves Oronis as a possibity, unless he's dead in the time frame of the issue.

Actually, there are other rules in place in 2E that altered this. Anyone suffering from great thirst may have to make saving throws to avoid doing things that are against their natures, such as resorting to violence against their fellow party to get food and water - the rules simulated the "Donner Party" effect. Is a paladin a paladin any more after he's just killed someone to drink their blood for water? Is a character even good? It could happen in the original Dark Sun rules.

Very true, and probably another source of 'discontent' is the lack of rules for Desert Madness. With a paladin, they would most certainly need to adjust the spell list (Create Water is bad for DS). And given that "atonement" may well be difficult to obtain, it'd fit and explains in part why the paladin is so rare.

Of course, the challenge of 'remaining a good paladin' will most likly just attract more folks to playing it.

To me, the Avangions are out of place, also, but that's a topic for another thread, one that drones endlessly about some rather poor changes made in the revised Dark Sun boxed set that no one wants to hear right now.

I will concede, that, as someone earlier said, I could see maybe a couple hundred years down the road that "proto-paladins" might arise, and Dave Noonan makes a good point about using Holy liberators from Defenders of the Faith - they, or better yet the Champion of Freedom from Arcana Unearthed would fit hand-in-glove in Dark Sun. But I just don't see them fitting in right now. I'm likely going to skip this issue entirely, pending a once-over in the bookstore to see if I'm not missing anything else. Next time I run a Dark Sun game, it looks like athas.org is definitely going to be the best place to go for rules for it.

Hehe, don't fault you at all there (on avangions), Dragon Kings had alot of 'resistance given form' that broke the setting, the druids and avangions notably.

Now drawing this rather largely off topic.

Erm, it interests me, but I'll have to see it in the store to see if I get it or not, same with the Dungeon issue on DS.

 

[Spatula]

Hmm, I had thought that the transformation spell is what bound the living vortice to the SK.

According to the Dragon Kings hardcover, you're correct. Dragon Kings also notes that there are no more living vortices, so new advanced beings (any avangions or new dragons) will not be able to grant spells.

As for the code, can a paladin ignore "smaller" acts of evil in order to pursue a greater goal? The code doesn't appear to allow for such comprimises, but they would be necessary in a world like Dark Sun where authority figures are evil and self-serving, slavery is everywhere, and injustices are commonplace.

 

[Mach2.5]

The nature of my adventures normally precludes the typical version of a paladin from being able to stay within a party formation for very long. The simple nature of social interaction on Athas prevents those 'of noble thinking' from being able to advance through the ranks. Players must resort more often to a mentality of 'the ends justify the means'. They must lie, steal, cheat, and kill in order to acheive the greater good, which has the detrimental effect of turning themselves away from that greater good in the long run. Tragedy itself is an important theme that runs throughout the novel series. In a standard adventure, the PCs may be required to save the noble's daughter in order to gain a valuable item that will aid them in their quest. In Dark Sun (at least, in my game), the PCs may be required to kill the noble's political enemy in order to gain the same item to further their quest. Paladins, by the very nature of being a paladin, subscribe to the mentality of 'the needs of the few outway the needs of the many'. That's very much in opposition to what has previously been presented thematically in DS over the years. Its reminds me of someone complaining about the Midnight setting because they can't have a cleric who worships good deities.

 

[reiella]

According to the Dragon Kings hardcover, you're correct. Dragon Kings also notes that there are no more living vortices, so new advanced beings (any avangions or new dragons) will not be able to grant spells.

As for the code, can a paladin ignore "smaller" acts of evil in order to pursue a greater goal? The code doesn't appear to allow for such comprimises, but they would be necessary in a world like Dark Sun where authority figures are evil and self-serving, slavery is everywhere, and injustices are commonplace.

Interesting on the DK note, more proof that DK was a "Meta-plot" mechanics book, anycase .

By the letter, I don't believe so. It's a problem for paladins in any game where there's an evil/self-serving corrupt leader. Or where slavery is common/legal, and not a problem exclusive to Dark Sun. [The problem exclusive to Dark Sun would be Desert Madness] Often times, you just simply have to redefine what it means to 'help those in need' or 'punish those that harm innocents'. The respecting legitimate authority, can unforunately easily be ignored by just assuming that the SKs are not legitimate authority. You can help in more covert ways or more 'grand' means [Covertly is obvious, in grand schemes, and the grand scheme would be an action 'for the greater good', such as feigning to ignore the cries of a beaten slave, because action then would jeopordize fourty more]. And punish those that harm innocents is just inheritly difficult to handle in any campaign literally. You can either select a specific set of adversaries to oppose [oppose the slavers in the nearby region], or oppose them in a more political sense rather than an active sense.

Ironically, the idea of an Avangion providing the power for a Paladin has sit well with me (Oronis still has his vertice, I believe), and could possibly fir in nicely, well except for Oronis being a seclusionary weirdo. They could act as agents to tilt the balance of power in different regions. Although, secrecy of their benefactor would be most certainly a necessity.

The ideals of a paladin perhaps shine through most in these environments, where the struggle is seemingly insurmountable. But, if you don't want to run a scenario where hope can shine at all, then of course a Paladin would not fit.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1) Where do their powers come from? There are no gods and no divine forces of good in the Athasian cosmology. You can certainly have a paladin-like character, but without the special abilities such a character is simply a LG fighter with a strict personal code.

Well, assuming there's a problem with the way they get powers according to the PHB (By simple conviction of faith and following the Right Path), you could make the spells and abilities not divine, but psionic, arising from the nature of the Paladin's honor and their following of the code -- the same way psions get powers by testing their bodies, Paladins gain powers by testing the limits of their faith, and their physical capacity to live with their high ideals.

2) The code. No paladin will be able to get very far before violating the class' code of conduct, and once that happens the character is no longer a paladin.

Well, other than Desert Madness (which is a good reason to ban paladins, but not a very good mechanic, IMHO), and the ways in which this isn't nessecarily true above, there's one easy thing you can do to make it viable: change the code.

As long as the Code is "good," and Paladins are beholden to follow it (obeying a law), it works. If you, say, remove the rule about associating with evil people (since in DS, you don't have that luxury), and get rid of the "respect authority" schtick (since in DS, the best way to preserve order is often to undermine the chaos that rules the people). Perhaps replace it with "organize resistance to corrupt authority," and "work to guide others to your path," and "value the lives of all, but do not let that tempt you from the Code."

It's still Lawful, it's still Good, but it's not Stupid, and, more importantly, it's appropriate for someone who wants to remain a 'good person' in a world that is trying to convince them the other way. You're doing exactly what a campaign setting should do -- alter the flavor of a class to fit it's own needs, preferably without altering the balance or eradicating the class, if possible.

 

[Mach2.5]

As long as the Code is "good," and Paladins are beholden to follow it (obeying a law), it works. If you, say, remove the rule about associating with evil people (since in DS, you don't have that luxury), and get rid of the "respect authority" schtick (since in DS, the best way to preserve order is often to undermine the chaos that rules the people). Perhaps replace it with "organize resistance to corrupt authority," and "work to guide others to your path," and "value the lives of all, but do not let that tempt you from the Code."

Wow, you have now just listed the general moral guidelines that any good aligned warrior would probably follow. Not much of a code then, is it, nor much of a paladin in the end. So, if you have to alter around the fundamentals of defining (non mechanically) the paladin, why even include the class? The more you try and hammer a square peg into a round hole, the more the peg becomes round anyhow.

There's also the whole "where the heck does the paly get his powers from?" aspect left to deal with. There's absolutely nowhere within the setting for such a person to derive those kinds of abilities without resorting to altering them into elemental divine magic, psionics, or arcane magic. You could easily as a DM come up with your own plane or power base from which the paladin draws his power from or that grants the paladin such favor, but its not in the setting innitially.

 

[reiella]

There's also the whole "where the heck does the paly get his powers from?" aspect left to deal with. There's absolutely nowhere within the setting for such a person to derive those kinds of abilities without resorting to altering them into elemental divine magic, psionics, or arcane magic. You could easily as a DM come up with your own plane or power base from which the paladin draws his power from or that grants the paladin such favor, but its not in the setting innitially.

Oronis as said earlier, could give power to Paladins just as easily as other SKs give to Templars...

He is one of the original champions and has since survived (well possibly not in the 300yr+ setting portrayed in Dragon), and at that, an Avangion. And he is disturbingly enough, Lawful Good (2e), and he still has Templars. I really don't see a reason why he couldn't sponsor paladins, beyond Oronis being a bit too covert and passive in the time frame of the 2e settings.

While, it would probably be better to employ them through elemental divine magic for a more "commonplace"/"commonly acceptable" Paladin as the other options can be done without creating a new class. Psionics would be Psy Warrior with a code, Arcane would be Hexblade or Eldritch Knight with a code.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wow, you have now just listed the general moral guidelines that any good aligned warrior would probably follow. Not much of a code then, is it, nor much of a paladin in the end. So, if you have to alter around the fundamentals of defining (non mechanically) the paladin, why even include the class? The more you try and hammer a square peg into a round hole, the more the peg becomes round anyhow.

Uhm......the paladin right now has a code of 'good aligned warrior.' The thing that makes him a paladin is that he follows a Code, and gains powers for that -- the exact code don't especially matter so much, as long as it is "good," because that alone sets any paladin apart from any mundane fighter. (The Lawful aspect comes a lot from them following the code in the first place) In the PHB, the Paladin is held to a higher standard than the Fighter. In DS it would be the same -- it's just that the Fighter isn't held to a very high standard to begin with. I'm not sure if it's a square peg; it's a round peg, you're just putting it it in sideways. I'm not having trouble defining the paladin -- just like the PHB says, the paladin is compassion, order, and power. A warrior of justice who's higher level of morality grants them powers beyond normal folks. It's the same paladin, with a bit of a flavor change.

There's also the whole "where the heck does the paly get his powers from?" aspect left to deal with. There's absolutely nowhere within the setting for such a person to derive those kinds of abilities without resorting to altering them into elemental divine magic, psionics, or arcane magic. You could easily as a DM come up with your own plane or power base from which the paladin draws his power from or that grants the paladin such favor, but its not in the setting innitially.

Uhmmmmmmmmm............just change the flavor text from "Divine power" to "Psionic power." Or accept the rules as written, which never state that any plane need be present for a paladin's powers to manifest.

Again, it's just a flavor change. Which is more than acceptable in an alternate campaign setting, and much more preferable to just saying "THEY DON'T BELONG HERE!"

 

[irdeggman]

Paladins must follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness, not just goodness.

In the previous editions of Dark Sun and in the literature (i.e., books), alignment is all grey and not black and white on Athas. By not having the clear distinction between good and evil that exists in the standard D&D world the uniqueness and requirements for playing a paladin are somewhat lost. Where they gains their powers (from some outside divine source or internal from psi similar abilities) is really moot in this perspective. It is a matter of what the definition of good and evil and law and chaos are that ultimately defines the role and place of a paladin. Because of these, IMO they really don't have a place on Athas.

 

[Mach2.5]

Uhmmmmmmmmm............just change the flavor text from "Divine power" to "Psionic power." Or accept the rules as written, which never state that any plane need be present for a paladin's powers to manifest

Nor is a cleric required to worship a specific deity, but yet there's no 'empowered by faith alone' going on in Athas either. Changing the paly to a psion leads to even further deviation and once again brings up the question, why use em? Just for the sake of completion? You could argue in just about any class (ninja and samauri for instance) given enough time and different approaches, but the end question is still, why? Does it really fill some vital niche? Is a fantasy setting somehow 'incomplete' without some of this?