Dragon PC's, or can solo or elite monster PC's be balanced

[lukelightning]

I'd suggest having them play dragonborn.

 

[Dooks Dizzo]

First of all, very cool! I am looking forward to following this thread and seeing out things progress.

A quick thought, if you want the characters to get a bit of time doing their own thing, you can always have the dragons tackle something big and nasty while the PC's handle the auxilleries.

You can narrate some of the fights for the Dragons as they soar through the sky fighting one on one with other dragons or powerful creatures while the PC's duke it out with legions of minions and such.

Not always, but as a way to change things up a bit and get your players involved with their characters.

Another idea at some point might be to have the characters rescue the dragons.

You might consider having them fight badguys with some resisitance to the Dragons Breath weapons as well.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Easiest approach:

Add Dragon XP Value to your encounter budget. That should cover it. Of course, that means huge battles.

One suggestion: Consider not leveling the Dragons much, or giving the PCs a higher level then the Dragons. Otherwise, the Dragons will probably totally overshadow the PCs.

 

[fissionessence]

I decided that I would rather preserve the awe and granduer behind the dragons, even if that meant them being far superior to their humanoid riders.

What about the dragons do you think will be most grandiose for your players? If they are unfamiliar with the rules, just the fact that they get to ride around on one might be good enough. Or you could ignore take the number of healing surges a 15th level character might have, then convert them into straight hit points. It would give them the same number of hit points per day, but they wouldn't have to worry about running out as much in combats. The rolling recharge powers aren't really that much more impressive to play than just per-encounter and daily. You can keep the multiattack powers and breath weapons, too, just format them in a way that they resemble player character powers. And if you really feel like the saving throw bonuses are necessary to maintain the grandeur, just make it +2 — a little better than human perseverance.

~

 

[77IM]

Here's my suggestion: Re-stat the dragons as normal monsters instead of solos.

Agreed. The Adult Red Dragon does not need 500 hit points and two claw attacks to be cool. Even with 100 hit points and a bite attack that doesn't do fire damage, he's still at least as cool as the PCs.

-- 77IM

 

[Ryan_Singer]

I have found Keterys's excellent guides for converting standard->elite->solo. By working backwards from them, I present the Young Red Dragon as a standard lvl 16 monster, roughly comparable to a level 16 PC:

Young Red Dragon Level 16
Large Dragon XP 1500
Init +12
HP 155 Bloodied 78
AC 30 Fort 30 Ref 27 Will 26
Resist 15 Fire
Speed 6, Fly 8 (hover) overland flight 12
Bite (standard; at-will) ✦Fire
Reach 2; +23 vs. AC; 2d6 + 6 plus 2d6 fire damage.
Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +23 vs. AC; 2d6 + 6 damage.
Double Attack (standard; at-will)
The dragon makes two claw attacks.
Tail Strike (immediate reaction, when an enemy moves to a position where it flanks the red dragon; at-will)
The dragon attacks the enemy with its tail: reach 2; +21 vs. Reflex; 1d10 + 6 damage, and the target is pushed 1 square.
BreathWeapon (standard; recharge ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦Fire
Close blast 5; +21 vs. Reflex; 1d12 + 4 fire damage. Miss: Half damage.
Frightful Presence (standard; encounter) ✦Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +21 vs. Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon’s next turn. Aftereffect: The target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +13, Insight +14, Intimidate +18
Str 22 (+13) Dex 17 (+10) Wis 14 (+9)
Con 19 (+11) Int 11 (+7) Cha 12 (+8)

 

[Ryan_Singer]

Young Blue Dragon Level 16
Large Dragon XP 1500
Init +10
HP 120 Bloodied 60
AC 29 Fort 30 Ref 27 Will 32
Resist 15 Lightning
Speed 8, Fly 10 (hover) overland flight 15
Gore (standard; at-will) ✦Lightning
Reach 2; +21 vs. AC; 1d6 + 6 plus 1d6 lightning damage.
Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +19 vs. AC; 1d4 + 6 damage.
Draconic Fury (standard; at-will)
The dragon makes a gore attack and two claw attacks.
BreathWeapon (standard; recharge ⚄ ⚅ ) ✦Lightning
The dragon targets up to three creatures with its lightning breath; the first target must be within 10 squares of the dragon, the second target within 10 squares of the first, and the third target within 10 squares of the second; +21 vs. Reflex; 1d12 + 6 lightning damage. Miss: Half damage. This attack does not provoke opportunity attacks.
Frightful Presence (standard; encounter) ✦ Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +21 vs. Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon’s next turn. Aftereffect: The target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).
Lightning Burst (standard; at-will) ✦ Lightning
Area burst 2 within 20; +21 vs. Reflex; 1d6 + 5 lightning damage. Miss: Half damage.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Athletics +22, Insight +14, Nature +14
Str 20 (+12) Dex 15 (+9) Wis 14 (+9)
Con 18 (+11) Int 12 (+8) Cha 13 (+8)

 

[erf_beto]

Easiest approach:

Add Dragon XP Value to your encounter budget. That should cover it. Of course, that means huge battles.

Is this the standard procedure for adding NPCs and monsters as allies to the party?
I usually game with few people and for simplicity would like to increase party size with mercenaries stated as monsters (so the players would run them without much trouble).

As for the OP, how will you deal with the dragon's Healing Surges? Each PC gets at least 6+Con mod Surges, but Monsters only have 2 of them in Paragon Tier, AFAIK... Won't they cripple the party somehow?

 

[Ryan_Singer]

Is this the standard procedure for adding NPCs and monsters as allies to the party?
I usually game with few people and for simplicity would like to increase party size with mercenaries stated as monsters (so the players would run them without much trouble).

As for the OP, how will you deal with the dragon's Healing Surges? Each PC gets at least 6+Con mod Surges, but Monsters only have 2 of them in Paragon Tier, AFAIK... Won't they cripple the party somehow?

Now that the Dragons have HP comparable to the PC's, I think I'll just give them a comparable number of healing surges as well. We'll see how it works out.

 

[Ferdil]

I have found Keterys's excellent guides for converting standard->elite->solo. By working backwards from them, I present the Young Red Dragon as a standard lvl 16 monster, roughly comparable to a level 16 PC:

You stole my idea to reverse Keterys's guides. I'm not saying you cannot use it, but I feel really offended because you passed it off as yours.

Here is the proof it was an idea of mine. The dates of the posts where I display my idea to use Keterys's guides reversed are precedent and very close.

I am very angry with you right now.

You could have consulted me and told me that you had a similar thread, so we could have worked together.

Right now I have far better ideas than yours. I had the idea to reverse Keterys's guides and now I have another idea. But I'm not going to tell you what it is, unless you apologise.

I really hate people like you that think they can do whatever they want on the internet.
If I were a little less kind I would have covered you with insults. However, you are lucky to have stolen an idea from a person who likes to debate peacefully. You would not like to hear how we call here in Italy people that do what you did.