Stormprince
First Post
Gallo22 said:
Um...the FRCS is 320 pages. The DLCS is 288 pages. That's a difference of 32 pages. Wizards of the Coast set the price for the book... *shrugs* YMMV.
Christopher
Dragonalnce Campaign Setting
- Thread starter LordAO
- Start date
Um...the FRCS is 320 pages. The DLCS is 288 pages. That's a difference of 32 pages. Wizards of the Coast set the price for the book... *shrugs* YMMV.
Christopher
AmerginLiath
Adventurer
I spent $40 on the FRCS and only use about 2/3 of it -- I'll use all of the DLCS, so I gladly put out my $40 already (ordering via Weis's site last night) 
BTW, are we going to get confirmation about when our order wil ship, to know if we can expect one of the initial batch (especially those that ordered before today)?
BTW, are we going to get confirmation about when our order wil ship, to know if we can expect one of the initial batch (especially those that ordered before today)?
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Stormprince said:
Well, thank you very muchLuckily, I'm well acquainted with the Lord of Darkness, so I was allowed an evening pass so that I could address a few things (particularly since I'm back from Origins).
The Lord of Darkness?
Stormprince said:
We did work out completely divergent systems of magic for clerics, mystics, sorcerers, and wizards. It consumed an entire book. However, one thing that you must remember, is that Dragonlance, particularly the Campaign Setting sourcebook, is a Wizards of the Coast product. Everything in that book was a joint effort between Sovereign Press and the WotC design staff. We made the decision to stick with the 3.5 sorcerer and created the mystic as the divine magic counterpoint. Why? Believe it or not, it wasn't because we took the "lazy way out." It was because in the end, we decided that the system required to cover spontaneous spellcasting as done by the sorcerers and mystics was something that bogged down game play. Some people like it, some people do not. Can't please everyone, although we did give it our best shot.
Oh, and remember, it's not like we don't have experience creating new spell systems. Check out the Sovereign Stone campaign setting that we designed
Christopher
Well I appreciate you coming on the boards to share your reasoning with us. I apologize if I came across a little harsh in my earlier post. I had just barely heard the news and was shocked and angry. Now that I've had a chance to calm down a little I will try and explain why the decision to stick with the standard 3.5 Sorcerer in the DLCS has so upset me.
I was actually one of those people who enjoyed the Fifth Age (I know, gasp). While there were some serious flaws in the SAGA game system, I found the world and the game to be enjoyable nonetheless. I particularly loved the free-form Sorcery and Mysticism magics. The thing I was most looking forward to in the DLCS book was to see how those magic systems would be reborn in D20. When I found ou that the typical 3.5 Sorcerer was being used, I was - disappointed - to say the least.
While I understand that there were no doubt some design issues (and probably some internal politics), I still feel that some compromise would have been far preferable to simply giving up and using the 3.5 Sorcerer class in its entirety and without the slightest modification. The Sorcery in the Fifth Age was COMPLETELY different from Wizardry. In fact, the old spells and ways simply ceased to work after the Gods left Krynn. The 3.5 Sorcerer is merely a Wizard varient. He uses the same exact spells, the same exact item creation rules, and everything. The only difference is that one uses Charisma and the other Intelligence and a spellbook (which in itself doesn't fit since 5th Age Sorcerers used Int). To use the typical, default D20 Sorcerer not only cheats everyone who enjoyed the 5th Age magic but it also cheats the Dragonlance setting.
And I'm not disputing that the people at Sovereign Press are very creative, resourceful individuals with great talent and game design skill. I personally loved the Sovereign Stone Magic system. I am not implying that you folks at Sovereign Stone have no experience making magic systems. I just wish that experience and creativity had actually been used in the DLCS. Two other D20 games, Star Wars and the Wheel of Time, didn't hesitate to use their own magic rules, since obviously the D20 magic simply does not fit in with those worlds. If fans of Star Wars had opened their rulebook to find that Jedi use 1st to 9th level Wizard spells and spellbooks, don't you think that they would have been confused, frustrated, and stunned?
This is exactly how I felt when I found out that the 5th Age magic was being canned. It is not as if there couldn't have been other options that would have pleased everyone. You could have put the 5th Age magic rules in its own book, if what you had come up with had required too much room. All would have been forgiven (at least by me). Instead you opted to stick with something that simply does not fit your setting nor please your fans. And you act as if you expect us to be grateful for the Mystic class? It is nothing more than a divine copy of the 3.5 Sorcerer! It probably took less than 5 minutes to come up with that one!
I am sorry, but the DLCS book is just something that I cannot enjoy. As a Dragonlance fan I simply cannot accomodate elements that so horribly ruin the setting I love. The one thing you could have done that would irreperably ruin that book and any faith I had in your game design merits - you did. I, for one, will never buy that book, or any other Sovereign Press material.
And I am not the only one.
jasamcarl said:
Well, as long as you don't overreact.
Would the previously mentioned Star Wars fan who opened up his book and saw that any mention of the force had been replaced with Wizard magic have been overreacting if he refused to buy that book or anything else published by the people who had ruined it?
Think about it.
Stormprince
First Post
LordAO said:
Okay, now put the shoe on the other foot... how do you think old school DL'ers felt about the whole 5th Age and SAGA products? Probably the same way you feel now. And just like you, they swore to never by another Dragonlance product... which is why Dragonlance was abandoned for Third Edition revision by Wizards of the Coast. Because SAGA sales never even approached the same numbers as the original Dragonlance products. Why is that, you might ask? Why, because Sorcery was nothing like the Wizards of High Sorcery... the Fifth Age was nothing like the Dragonlance people had known and loved.
So, we at Sovereign Press decide that we want to try and heal the wounds between the two... to heal the rift. We put everything on the line to get the license. It's a license, which means that we have to play by certain rules established by the license owners: Wizards of the Coast. Which means that they took the sorcerer concept from the Fifth Age and converted it into Third Edition already. We did create all new sorcerer and mystic classes, unlike the versions that made it into the final draft. They were discarded for multiple reasons:
A) Third Edition already had the sorcerer class and they felt that the Primal Sorcerer class and Mystic were just not compatable with the other classes.
B) The system, no matter how streamlined we made it, bogged down game play. It required both the DM and the player know it backwards and forwards and even then it required calculations. There are already more than enough complications with 3rd Edition that we didn't want to add another permutation.
C) We debated including the alternate primal sorcerer and mystic as classes in our own, non-WotC published, sourcebook, but then we decided that we could not in good conscious do so...every sorcerer and mystic and monster with such powers we then presented would have to be dual-stated for both those that preferred the "simpler" version to the complicated version. We decided, in the end, that we wanted to support Dragonlance as a roleplaying world, NOT a ruleplaying world...which adding yet another set of mechanics would do - Bog down gameplay. You'll probably argue that it never affected your games, I've heard that one a few times, but the vast majority of people I've spoken with didn't like the freeform system... it was too subjective.
Even though I was not a big fan of the SAGA system, that didn't stop me from buying Dragonlance products. It was my way of supporting my favorite world. You're right, though, there will be some few people that are upset about the decision we were forced to make. Well, can't please all the consumers all of the time. There are only three of us working on Dragonlance full time right now. We feel rather satisfied with the work we have done thus far and will be continuing to do... and if you feel that because of the sorcery rules (or lack thereof) that you will be abandoning the future of Dragonlance, well that is your right... and you've already made it clear that pretty much nothing I say is going to sway you, so I shan't waste any more of your time, or mine, with pointless debate.
Meanwhile, I'm sorry that you'll be missing out and I'm sorry that we were unable to please everyone...because we all know that other companies make consumers happy all of the time!
Christopher
PS (EDIT) - Oh yeah, and remember, Dragonlance was a AD&D world long before it was a SAGA world... and our contract was to do Dragonlance d20
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Stormprince
First Post
LordAO said:
Actually, I seem to recall a lot of uproar over WotC's treatment of the Force compared with the original system...
Christopher
Stormprince said:
So then it's perfectly ok for you to do even worse to your game?
Everyone else is doing it! So why can't you?
(Edit) And just imagine their uproar if they had said, "you know, the Force just isn't compatible with the D20 system and the classes in it. So we are just going to make Jedis Sorcerers."
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Stormprince
First Post
LordAO said:
Worse? *shakes his head* Oy.
*erases his response*
Nope, not going to get insulting. Not gonna lose my cool. So, I'll simply say that with sorcery, it was a give or take thing. We got vetoed by WotC, we decided that it was one of those things that we could live with. Understand this. WotC OWNS Dragonlance. They do NOT own Star Wars. Big difference there, mate.
Christopher
