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Dragonlance based on Mormonism?!?

Benben

First Post
the fall of Istar reminds me of the Nephite cycle of pride and repentance.
I'm a non-Mormon, but one who has lived in Idaho all of his life. The Nephite cycle is a out of my experience, can anybody give a precis?
 

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Benben

First Post
ShadowX said:
I recall that the Rose of the Prophet trilogy had a strong Mormon correlation, and that Dragonlance was much weaker in this area, but my memory could be failing me.
Any way we can give your memory a boost, because I'm just not seeing the allegorical references. It seems or of a D20 extension to the AD&D alignment system. The other major character and cultural arcs don't seem to map to my limited knowledge of LDS theology.
 

Kesh

First Post
In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.

Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.
 

ShadowX

First Post
Kesh said:
In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.

Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.
That would be my impression from his works. Nothing allegorical, but an occasional idea that is similar to some piece of doctrine.
 

ShadowX

First Post
Benben said:
Any way we can give your memory a boost, because I'm just not seeing the allegorical references. It seems or of a D20 extension to the AD&D alignment system. The other major character and cultural arcs don't seem to map to my limited knowledge of LDS theology.
I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong. IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms. Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.
 

ShadowX

First Post
Benben said:
I'm a non-Mormon, but one who has lived in Idaho all of his life. The Nephite cycle is a out of my experience, can anybody give a precis?
1) People are righteous; blessings are given.
2) People become prideful because of blessings.
3) God chastens his people from the myriad ways laid out in the Bible.
4) People become humble and repent.

Rinse and repeat.
 

Benben

First Post
ShadowX said:
I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong. IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms. Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.
Hmmm, interesting I can see that.
 

reanjr

First Post
Kesh said:
In the Annotated books, there's a mention that Hickman did draw on his faith for a few ideas, but it wasn't allegorical or anything. It just provided inspiration for a few things. I do seem to recall a small essay at the back of the Annotated Chronicles talking about how he drew from his faith to help create the DL pantheon.

Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy to reference, so my memory might be a little fuzzy on that.
If I recall correctly, the Dragonlance deities were the original Forgotten Realms deities created by Jeff Grubb? Something like that. Alot of Dragonlance names are taken from the bible or other Christian writings, though (Habbakuk, Hiddukel, Zeboim, and I think even Takhisis).
 

reanjr

First Post
ShadowX said:
I am sorry if I implied that it was allegorical, I don't remember anything that strong. IIRC, each god had a fiefdom that wasn't aware of the other kingdoms. Now this reminded me of the LDS belief that other Gods exist, running their own cosmic experiments, yet we are to pay homage to only our God, the one who birthed us.
There's nothing really like that in Dragonlance. All of the deities and their followers are fully aware of other deities and their followers. And many deities have intermingled followers. Istar had a strong following for Paladine and Mishikal; Solamnia was Paladine, Habbakuk, and Kiri-Jolith; Mithas and Kothas followed Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith; the arcane followers of Takhisis paid respect to Nuitari, Lunitari, and Solinari (all wizards paid respect to those three in fact despite what their individual beliefs might be).

Everybody pretty muched worshipped everybody.
 

ShadowX

First Post
reanjr said:
There's nothing really like that in Dragonlance. All of the deities and their followers are fully aware of other deities and their followers. And many deities have intermingled followers. Istar had a strong following for Paladine and Mishikal; Solamnia was Paladine, Habbakuk, and Kiri-Jolith; Mithas and Kothas followed Sargonnas and Kiri-Jolith; the arcane followers of Takhisis paid respect to Nuitari, Lunitari, and Solinari (all wizards paid respect to those three in fact despite what their individual beliefs might be).

Everybody pretty muched worshipped everybody.
I was commenting on Rose of the Prophets.
 

Serena DarkMyst

First Post
reanjr said:
If I recall correctly, the Dragonlance deities were the original Forgotten Realms deities created by Jeff Grubb? Something like that. Alot of Dragonlance names are taken from the bible or other Christian writings, though (Habbakuk, Hiddukel, Zeboim, and I think even Takhisis).
Jeff Grubb had a campaign called Toril...which was not at all related to Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms. A good number of the gods of Jeff's pantheon were used in Dragonlance, with the names getting a bit of a makeover. Then, the powers that be used Jeff's campaign name for the planet of the Forgotten Realms setting.

So, in a weird technical way the gods of Krynn came from Toril, which was not Forgotten Realms....until it was. ;) :cool:

So no....the gods of DL were not the original FR gods...it is just a good example of showing how creative things were used at TSR.
 

mhacdebhandia

Explorer
One thing that certainly owes its roots to Hickman's Mormonism would be the magic spectacles which let Tasslehoff read any language. :cool:
 

nikolai

First Post
mhacdebhandia said:
One thing that certainly owes its roots to Hickman's Mormonism would be the magic spectacles which let Tasslehoff read any language. :cool:
Arani Korden said:
I agree that it's not a direct allegory, though you can see where the series has been informed by Hickman's faith. In addition to the Disks of Mishakal/Golden Plates thing (which leads to the restoration of an empowered priesthood)...
A lot of this discussion is taking place outside any point of reference I have. You might as well be writing in Greek (though, if you were, at least I'd be able to use Babelfish). ;)

Could someone explain the references above?
 

Vocenoctum

First Post
nikolai said:
A lot of this discussion is taking place outside any point of reference I have. You might as well be writing in Greek (though, if you were, at least I'd be able to use Babelfish). ;)

Could someone explain the references above?
The only reference I have for it is from South Park, so I won't add anything. :)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
nikolai said:
Could someone explain the references above?
Mormonism was jounded by Joseph Smith in 1830. Smith claimed to have been led by the angel Moroni to dig up a set of Golden Plates that had been buried by the original inhabitants of North America (who were actually the lost tribe of Israel). He was able to translate writing on the plates using two mystical stones found with the plates. The resulting text became the Book of Mormon, the new testament of the Bible on which the Chuch of Latter Day Saints is based.

I've been told by a number of folks raised in the Mormon tradition that the South Park episode is actually pretty accurate, for all it's slanted reporting.

Edit: I have provided the above to clarify some of the references from earlier in the thread. It is not intended as fodder for a discussion of the Mormon faith or it's tenets, as that is not fit fodder for these message boards.
 
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talinthas

First Post
Dragonlance is (especially in dragons of autumn twilight) pretty heavily based on mormon theology.

I point to the disks of mishakal, which are direct analogs to the golden plates Smith found, the fall of the church of Istar, which is the Mormon view of the Catholic Church, the turning of man from god, and god waiting to be found again, god being brought by a native american type (goldmoon), just like the Book of Mormon's north american revelations stuff, and so on and so forth.

If you read annotated Legends, Hickman talks extensively in the appendix about his faith and dragonlance, quoting from a number of mormon texts, including The Pearl of Great Price (which is where Goldmoon's gem analogy comes from).
Also, see the River of Souls concept and the appendix to Vanished Moon, which while heavily catholic inspired, also carries a lot of mormon messages.


It's no real secret =)
Of course, Tracy is also a very widely read person, and not closed minded about other faiths either, as i've learned in numerous discussions with him.
 

Krieg

First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
Yeah, but saying it is based on his religious beliefs and then drawing parallels to Adam and the lost tribes of Israel isn't saying much. I believe, after all, that the Bible is still the best-selling book in the world. And the Koran has those features as well.
Let's not forget that the 13th tribe holds a far more important roll in the Chruch of LDS than in other branches of the tree of Christianity.

The Count Iblis episodes also feature some theological beliefs that again share more in common with the Mormon faith than other Chrisitan teachings.

Larson has also stated publicly that the use of Egyptian symbology was a homage to Smiths' original tablets.

I am reasonably confident that if Larson were Greek Orthodox, Jehova Witness or Anglican some of the symbology of the film would be very different.

Of course it is completely understandable, anyone's work is influenced by their own background, Larson is no different than any other writer in that regard.

JD just out of curiousity, do you carry a temple recommend? I apologize if that is too invasive a question, just genuinely curious.
 
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Desdichado

Adventurer
As for Dragonlance, I think those correspondences are pretty trivial and likely coincidental. I could probably just as easily build a case around the Book of Mormon and it's influence on the Wheel of Time, including the character of King Laman of Cairhien and obvious parallels between the Way of the Leaf the the Ammonites, including the later Aiel as the second generation of Ammonites, the "stripling warriors" of Helaman.

But I won't. ;)

Krieg; yes I do, as a matter of fact. Just renewed it a month or two ago in time for my brother's wedding, as it had just expired.
 

talinthas

First Post
You know, it would be trivial, if Tracy didn't outright say as much. Have you ever read his essay on gaming and religion?

Dragonlance, at its core, is very heavily christian, and as a subset, leans pretty LDS in theology.

Only reason i care? Dragonlance is responsible for making me a devout and pretty orthodox Hindu, so i've spent a lot of time thinking about and analysing the religious aspect of DL. maybe too much time =)
 

Storm Raven

First Post
nikolai said:
There are various levels of this sort of thing. Narnia is Christian allegory. This is pretty easy to spot, as one thing in the story represents something else; Edmund=Judas. The reason Tolkien would reject this for Lord of the Rings is because there are none of these correspondences.
Or, even more obviously, Aslan = Jesus.
 

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