Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Velderan]

They're primarily wanderers who "handle" (steal) things. That's actually the only connection to the (bigoted myths about) Romani. They don't otherwise have anything in common with them--not like the Vistani, who were deliberately made to be Romani knock-offs.

See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.

 

[DarkCrisis]

It's the writers fault for writing a race that is kleptomaniacal and has Taunt as a racial ability and is utterly fearless and is naturally anarchic and is willing to get into danger, no matter the consequences, because of being fearless and thinking death is just another adventure and who apparently can't understand what private property is despite being known to take things but not give them... well, that's a problem. If a race constantly causes problems except for a few good players who have to deliberately change the way the race is described in order to avoid interparty conflict--then yes, there's a problem with the race.

Sounds like a fun race to RP with and nice and different than the average adventurer.

I could say the same thing about a War-like race or class (lets say Krynn Minotaurs) or the average tropy Barbarian) who charge into battle and who don't mind insulting anyone they deem weaker than them. Would really suck for the party trying to negotiate with the King when the Barbarian calls him a "Weak Dog!". Must be the classes fault?

No its the players fault. It always the players (and/or the DMs fault). I'd much rather have a fun loving Kender in my group than a Conan-wanna be who causes more problems than they solve.

The amount of times Ive had to reign back a "Ill fight anything!" player because his character tried to pick a fight with the guards/shop keepers/helpful wizard/King/whatever... yeah I'll take a Kender any day.

 

[Morrus]

It's the writers fault for writing a race that is kleptomaniacal and has Taunt as a racial ability and is utterly fearless and is naturally anarchic and is willing to get into danger, no matter the consequences, because of being fearless and thinking death is just another adventure and who apparently can't understand what private property is despite being known to take things but not give them... well, that's a problem. If a race constantly causes problems except for a few good players who have to deliberately change the way the race is described in order to avoid interparty conflict--then yes, there's a problem with the race.

I guess if you're writing a character for a novel, you're not necessarily thinking about game playabilty?

 

[DarkCrisis]

See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.

I love original Ravenloft but lets not pretend Hickman didn't watch the old B/W Dracula film and then make an RPG out of it. That whole "gypsy" trope thing is right out of Dracula.

 

[Hussar]

We're talking about how there's an issue trying to sell the Cataclysm as a Good* thing the Good gods helped do in retaliation for the Kingpriest being too Good.

No one else is trying to tie it to real world stuff (And thus the third rail we're not allowed to touch on this forum) here.

*Even by D&D Good standards. 'Respect life' my butt.

Again. Who is claiming that the Cataclysm is good? Citation please. As far as I can see you guys are the only ones claiming this.

 

[Hussar]

Excalibur is based on an ancient story.

Dragonlance was first published 1984.

You don’t think the Cataclysm is based on an ancient story?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Again. Who is claiming that the Cataclysm is good? Citation please. As far as I can see you guys are the only ones claiming this.

'It was a collective punishment and they all deserved it'

Which is where all this went mask off.

 

[Faolyn]

I guess if you're writing a character for a novel, you're not necessarily thinking about game playabilty?

But Dragonlance isn't just a novel series. It's a game as well. It's not even a novel that was converted to a game--the books and adventures were put out nearly at the same time.

Edit: IIRC, the character came from the home D&D game that was later turned into Dragonlance. The character was, IIRC, a halfling who ended up with a ring of invisibility, and Weiss and Hickman were like, no, that's a bit too close to Tolkien there.

I could say the same thing about a War-like race or class (lets say Krynn Minotaurs) or the average tropy Barbarian) who charge into battle and who don't mind insulting anyone they deem weaker than them. Would really suck for the party trying to negotiate with the King when the Barbarian calls him a "Weak Dog!". Must be the classes fault?

Do minotaurs or barbarians have it written into their racial or class features that they always call people weak dogs? Or that they are more than willing to attack other party members because they can't understand that they shouldn't?

No, they don't.

You don’t think the Cataclysm is based on an ancient story?

Technically, and from a meta-position, of course it is. But it's not meant to be a retelling of that story. It's just supposed to invoke the same feelings that the original story.

 

[Faolyn]

See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.

I agree. On the other hand, I am not, to my knowledge, of Romani heritage (I'd love to get my genes tested, though) so I'm not going to speak for them on this matter. While I desperately want to change the kender, it's not because of racism.

 

[Hussar]

'It was a collective punishment and they all deserved it'

Which is where all this went mask off.

Citation please. Page and book please. I get that this is your interpretation, but, I would really like to see the primary source here.