Dragons and grapple

[Corwin]

So,

MM: "Grappling: Dragons do not favor grapple attacks, though their crush attack and Snatch feat (see the descriptions of feats) use normal grapple rules."

One of my players is upset that my big bad dragon used fly-by and snatch tactics, managing to kill his PC. He's complaining that dragons don't use grapples and so the Snatch feat shouldn't be used.

I say, there is a difference between Snatch/Crush and making a grapple attack. Even with Fly-by. Talk about a dragon-like thing to do. Swoop in, grab the guy, and fly off to eat him at its leasure.

Of course dragons won't waste time making grapple attacks. Duh. Especially against big opponents. But not picking up a human and flying off for dinner is not the intent of the MM quote, IMO.

Not to mention the vagueness of the word "favor". Does an armored fighter "favor" grapples? Probably not. Most won't. But can he use them whenever he wants? Sure? Will he find instances where he will want to use them? Of course. Is he good at them? Likely (he's a big burly fighter, after all).

Could it be that the meaning of the quote in question, is that dragons don't like to tumble around and wrestle (like with other big creatures)? Because that would make more sense in context.

Thoughts? Opinions? Insights?

 

[hammymchamham]

I vote that you did right.

Now, what I would do (or at least tell my players), is that 'In my world, Dragons favor grapple checks all the time.' And then I'd through a Dragon who would grapple the party members.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Hammy! You're back! How's Hamland these days?

I say dragons will use Snatch as much as they can. Your player's protests are

a.) sour grapes, and

b.) annoying (I hate when players quote rules in that fashion. It's one thing to bring up a game mechanic that's being/has been mishandled...but soft rules like that one shouldn't issue from the mouths of players.)

 

[KarinsDad]

b.) annoying (I hate when players quote rules in that fashion. It's one thing to bring up a game mechanic that's being/has been mishandled...but soft rules like that one shouldn't issue from the mouths of players.)

Yeah, I have a rules lawyer player who about once per game says "You can't do that".

So, sometimes I say "Yup, you're right" and have the NPC do something else.

But, sometimes I say "This guy can do that" and move on. Annoys the heck out of him in return. And, it annoys him even more if I don't tell him later on how the guy did it. Always keep your players guessing is my motto.

 

[kreynolds]

Thoughts? Opinions? Insights?

I think you're player was generalizing "Dragons do not favor grapple attacks" too much. This, however, is quite true, and there is a very good reason why dragons do not favor grapple attacks...it's a waste of an action. This does not mean that dragons will not grapple in any way.

What they mean when they say that "Dragons do not favor grapple attacks" is really "Dragons do not favor grappling with their entire bodies, as they are quite large enough and powerful enough to use a mere claw or their mouth to grapple a foe, crush or shred them to pieces, and all the while, still taking attacks against other opponents, or the poor soul they have snatched."

...or something along those lines.

 

[the Jester]

Waitaminute...

This guy says dragons don't use feats described as dragon-only?

A whiner AND stupid.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Blunt...

...but true.

 

[Corwin]

Re: Re: Dragons and grapple

What they mean when they say that "Dragons do not favor grapple attacks" is really "Dragons do not favor grappling with their entire bodies, as they are quite large enough and powerful enough to use a mere claw or their mouth to grapple a foe, crush or shred them to pieces, and all the while, still taking attacks against other opponents, or the poor soul they have snatched."

This is exactly my point (only said more better). Thank you for making my point clearly for me, k. That was what I was trying to get across.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

MM: "Grappling: Dragons do not favor grapple attacks...

One of my players is upset that my big bad dragon used fly-by and snatch tactics, managing to kill his PC. He's complaining that dragons don't use grapples...

That's a stretch. He went from "do not favor" to "don't use." Did you point that out to him? Furthermore, Snatch is a dragon feat. Why the heck would a dragon not use its own abilities? Your player seems to be pleading a losing case.

I say, there is a difference between Snatch/Crush and making a grapple attack. Even with Fly-by. Talk about a dragon-like thing to do. Swoop in, grab the guy, and fly off to eat him at its leasure.

Of course dragons won't waste time making grapple attacks. Duh. Especially against big opponents. But not picking up a human and flying off for dinner is not the intent of the MM quote, IMO.

Not to mention the vagueness of the word "favor". Does an armored fighter "favor" grapples? Probably not. Most won't. But can he use them whenever he wants? Sure? Will he find instances where he will want to use them? Of course. Is he good at them? Likely (he's a big burly fighter, after all).

Could it be that the meaning of the quote in question, is that dragons don't like to tumble around and wrestle (like with other big creatures)? Because that would make more sense in context.

Thoughts? Opinions? Insights?

I agree with you.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'll have to re-read the dragon section again(snatch in particular) but can they snatch and fly-by. Grapple to the point where you could carry someone off would seem to be more than one attack making it a full attack, and so no fly-by I'd think.

Further-more I might have a problem with a dragon doing this dependent on its size and age, and color. Also I can't see why something as smart as a dragon would use this tactic if his motives were something like food on a adventuring party. Yeah I only like my food when it has a chance to kill me back. It's the big game hunter dragon.