Corwin said:
By this I still believe you are misunderstanding.
You do realize, of course, that inititating a grapple check is not the same thing as initiating a grapple, right?
Grapple checks occur all the time throughout the course of an ongoing grapple. Pinning someone requires a grapple check. Breaking off does as well (unless using Escape Artist - which is still opposed by a grapple check).
Taking a standard action to initiate a grapple check for moving must, by it's nature, require that you already be in a grapple situation. Otherwise you are not curreently grappling to move the opponent. So the two require separate actions.
Ok, so what you are saying is that you:
Round one:
1) Initiate a grapple (touch attack)
2) Make a hold check (i.e. grapple check)
3) Move into defender's space.
4) Actually grappling at this point.
5) You can attempt to move the defender next round (unless Hasted in which case you could do it now). You could also at this point do other grapple type checks such as Pinning if you had only done a 5 foot step and had multiple attacks from a full round attack left over, but you could not do a Move Check since it would require additional movement and you have already attacked and moved this round.
Correct?
Next round:
1) Make a move check (i.e. grapple check)
2) Move defender.
Correct?
I assume you can make multiple move checks with multiple attacks from a full round attack, but that you can only actually succeed once.
If so, this is not as bad as I thought. It still has some advantages over Bull Rush / Grapple combinations, but they are not quite as severe as I thought before:
1) It avoids the additional attacks of opportunities for doing a normal Bull Rush from other opponents (the defender still can AoO the Grapple).
2) It avoids the being prone if you fail the Bull Rush and the space you end up in is occupied.
3) Bull Rush is single directional. This ability would allow you to move the character in any direction each round.
4) The movement is based off your encumbrance level, not based off how much you make the move check roll by.
But, problem #4 can be addressed by changing this rule to you move the character 5 feet plus 1 foot per how much you make the grapple check by each round. In other words, make the rule identical to the Bull Rush rule. If you do this, you could also make multiple move checks with multiple attacks from a full round attack, but that the most you move the opponent is based off your best roll (i.e. you could move him back 8 feet by rolling 3 better on the roll, but if you then roll 1 better and then 7 better, you actually move him back 12 feet).
If you do not change #4, then this is pretty potent in that you can typically move the opponent a greater distance this way per round than you could by doing a Bull Rush each round.
Problems #1, #2, and #3 are probably not that big of a deal individually, but you are removing some of the disadvantages of Bull Rush by doing it this way. Maybe a slight disadvantage for doing it this way above and beyond the disadvantages for Grappling. Possibly a Trip Check chance by the defender if the attacker misses the Move Check as opposed to no penalty for not moving the guy. I've kind of wondered for a while why Trip Checks are not a normal part of Grappling anyway.
And, of course, since the Defender is also grappling, he can attempt Move Checks on his turn to push the attacker back where he came from or somewhere else. Correct?
