D&D 5E Dragons and Resistances

[Tanaka Chris]

[MENTION=6777286]Lucas Yew[/MENTION], how would you do that?

I'm a new player and I see my DM's devil horns growing since he got the MM and DM guide, I'd like to come prepared to battles if possible

 

[Derren]

In the vast majority of those cases, the dragon was not played intelligently. A well-played dragon is very deadly.

Unless the party has many ranged weapons (especially the fighter). In that case the dragon is as good as dead if it comes close enough to use its breath weapon.
And if they fight the dragon outside of its lair it gets even more easy.

Dragons have become XP Pinatas, doomed to sit in their lair and wait for the PCs to arrive as otherwise they would be even less of a challenge.
The only reports on the forum in which dragons can be perceived as strong is when the dragon has a vastly higher CR thant the party level and when the party hardly has any ranged weapons, rendering half PCs useless.

 

[Joe Liker]

Unless the party has many ranged weapons (especially the fighter). In that case the dragon is as good as dead if it comes close enough to use its breath weapon.
And if they fight the dragon outside of its lair it gets even more easy.

Dragons have become XP Pinatas, doomed to sit in their lair and wait for the PCs to arrive as otherwise they would be even less of a challenge.
The only reports on the forum in which dragons can be perceived as strong is when the dragon has a vastly higher CR thant the party level and when the party hardly has any ranged weapons, rendering half PCs useless.

Right, see, I said "intelligently." If your DM is treating the dragon as if it is unaware of the existence of crossbows, he is doing it wrong. A smart dragon would fight outdoors only on a windy day (disadvantage for ranged weapon attacks), and it would almost never fight outside the region that counts as its lair. Against ranged attackers, a blue or white dragon would more likely burrow than fly; green or black would prefer to fight deep underwater. They would all do everything possible to keep you from having a clear shot as they let their breath recharge. Also, spellcasting dragons have plenty of ways to stymie ranged attacks.

People seem to enjoy a very restrictive reading of the word "lair," by the way. In my game, if a dragon lives inside a mountain, then that whole mountain is its lair, so lair effects can be used anywhere in, on, or above that mountain. Regional effects extend one mile beyond that. The mere act of getting to the dragon's lair is an arduous process, and a severe drain on resources.

I'm guessing a lot of the so-called "easy dragon fights" went something like:

"Can we fight a dragon?"

"Sure. A dragon swoops down out of the sky. Roll initiative."

Which actually has nothing to do with how dragons should be played.

 

[Derren]

Right, see, I said "intelligently." If your DM is treating the dragon as if it is unaware of the existence of crossbows, he is doing it wrong. A smart dragon would fight outdoors only on a windy day (disadvantage for ranged weapon attacks), and it would almost never fight outside the region that counts as its lair. Against ranged attackers, a blue or white dragon would more likely burrow than fly; green or black would prefer to fight deep underwater. They would all do everything possible to keep you from having a clear shot as they let their breath recharge. Also, spellcasting dragons have plenty of ways to stymie ranged attacks.

People seem to enjoy a very restrictive reading of the word "lair," by the way. In my game, if a dragon lives inside a mountain, then that whole mountain is its lair, so lair effects can be used anywhere in, on, or above that mountain. Regional effects extend one mile beyond that.

That assumes that the dragon can always choose the time and place of the engagement which is not the case against intelligently playes adventurers. And spellcasting dragons are a variant.

 

[Joe Liker]

That assumes that the dragon can always choose the time and place of the engagement which is not the case against intelligently playes adventurers. And spellcasting dragons are a variant.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how adventurers get to choose instead of the dragon.

And variant is not the same as "illegal." What's your point?

 

[the Jester]

I still don't understand why they removed from the dragons the classic D&D dragons abilities: Magic Resistance and Resistance to Non-magical weapons.

Because those aren't actually as classic as you might think. I don't believe it ever required a magical weapon to hit a dragon except in 3e, and they only got magic resistance when old in 2e; before that, they didn't have it at all.

 

[Derren]

Perhaps you'd like to explain how adventurers get to choose instead of the dragon.

And variant is not the same as "illegal." What's your point?

Variant means on most tables and in all published adventures the spellless version will be used.
How can adventurers dictate the circustances of the battle?

Dictating the weather is easy enough. As the dragon has to sit in it lair they can choose when to approach. They can also besiege the dragon in order to leave his prepared killing ground although they forsake the initiative that way.
Also, there are many spells which allow changing the weather or allow an alternative access to the lair bypassing any lakes, etc.

And of course this reliance on the lair means that a dragon can not go on the offensive, at least, against the PC unless absourdly higher level than the party.

 

[the Jester]

Variant means on most tables and in all published adventures the spellless version will be used.

Do you have any evidence to support this, or are you just, you know, making assumptions?

Dictating the weather is easy enough. As the dragon has to sit in it lair they can choose when to approach.

Or this?

And of course this reliance on the lair means that a dragon can not go on the offensive, at least, against the PC unless absourdly higher level than the party.

Or this?

You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions that rely on the dragon being stupid and sitting in place. Also, you seem to be assuming that a dragon's lair is "this cave over here" instead of "this mountain" or even "this hundred square miles of mountains".

 

[Derren]

Do you have any evidence to support this, or are you just, you know, making assumptions?

Published adventure use the core rules as written. That includes dragons without spells.

Or this?

Lair actions are factored into the dragons CR. Without them, meaning outside its lair, the dragons are even weaker and easy prey for the PCs unless the level-cr difference is gigantic. That means in nearly all cases the dragon will be on the defensive and the PCs can choose the time of engagement or at high level magically change the weather to suit their needs.

Or this?

See above, without lair actions dragons get even weaker and hardly pose a challenge compared to non-legendary monsters of the same CR.

You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions that rely on the dragon being stupid and sitting in place. Also, you seem to be assuming that a dragon's lair is "this cave over here" instead of "this mountain" or even "this hundred square miles of mountains".

Who is now making assumptions. And you should look up the word lair in the dictionary.

 

[the Jester]

Published adventure use the core rules as written. That includes dragons without spells.

Published adventures for D&D have used variants and tricks outside the rules from the very earliest days.

Lair actions are factored into the dragons CR.

In some cases, both CRs are given in the MM, but that's beside the point. If the dragon can be tactically savvy and degrade an attacking party outside of its lair before they enter it, then why wouldn't it? You seem to be basing all your assumptions on "the dragon MUST wait for intruders", which is absolutely ridiculous.

Without them, meaning outside its lair, the dragons are even weaker and easy prey for the PCs unless the level-cr difference is gigantic. That means in nearly all cases the dragon will be on the defensive and the PCs can choose the time of engagement or at high level magically change the weather to suit their needs.

I don't buy the notion that "waiting in my lair like a piece of treasure" is at all the optimal strategy for a dragon.

Who is now making assumptions. And you should look up the word lair in the dictionary.

Since when has D&D required the dictionary? Point at where, in the 5e books, a lair is defined as the sort of easily-breached, "assault me here please!" sort of thing that you are describing, and I'll agree you have a case.