Dragons and their spells.

[Lord Ben]

Okay, I'm in the process of making a dragon for an adventure to take place after the Temple of EE is done so about 15th level.

Do the Dragon's spells they cast as a sorceror count as a spell like ability for their feat "quicken spell like ability"? If so that's a pretty cool feat. Do they provoke AO's for using their spells and spell like abilities? Do they have to wave their hands around if they have somatic or material components, etc?

If I want the Dragon to be slightly better at spellcasting without making them into a bigger dragon is it possible to add 5 levels of sorceror and say that stacks with their current sorceror level? I wanted to have the Dragon be a sort of Scholorly ancient being who's knowledge of magic and history far surpasses that of other creatures. Can you substitute Wizard for Sorceror?

 

[hong]

1) Spells are not spell-like abilities (see long, tedious feeblemind thread). Quicken Sp ability does not apply to spells, but it would apply to any of the listed Sp abilities that a dragon gets by age category.

2) Spellcasting for dragons is just like spellcasting for anyone else. It involves components, and provokes AoOs. It's best not to think too hard about things like somatic or material components.

3) Yes, you can give a dragon sorcerer levels, and (going by precedent) it would stack.

4) As DM, you can do anything you like within the confines of your campaign, including substituting wizard levels for sorcerer levels. Your players are unlikely to complain about this, one way or the other.

5) The spellcasting mechanic has nothing to do with the backstory. In the PHB, they've chosen to explain sorcerers' background by reference to "innate spellcasting", but that's neither here nor there. It's quite possible to have spellcasters who come about their abilities by long hours of study and arcane research, and yet use the spontaneous casting/limited spells mechanic (the maho-tsukai from OA is an example of this). If you want to substitute wizard for sorc, you're free to do so, but there's no real reason for it.

 

[bret]

4) As DM, you can do anything you like within the confines of your campaign, including substituting wizard levels for sorcerer levels. Your players are unlikely to complain about this, one way or the other.

Depends.

I'm playing in a campaign where we are going up against a very powerful dragon. We have been trying (rather unsuccessfully) to find out what spells that dragon was known to have cast.

If dragons cast spells as Sorcerers, you can know what spells to prepare for. If they are wizards, this isn't nearly as useful.
I would be rather annoyed if the GM never let me know that some dragons have been known to cast spells as wizards instead. I would think that the various tales of dragons would make it known what sort of magical powers a dragon can call forth. Taking advantage of player assumptions that match the type of information their characters would have been exposed to isn't all that clever.

 

[hong]

If dragons cast spells as Sorcerers, you can know what spells to prepare for. If they are wizards, this isn't nearly as useful.
I would be rather annoyed if the GM never let me know that some dragons have been known to cast spells as wizards instead. I would think that the various tales of dragons would make it known what sort of magical powers a dragon can call forth. Taking advantage of player assumptions that match the type of information their characters would have been exposed to isn't all that clever.

Where did I say the DM should never let the players know, or take advantage of player metagame knowledge?

Furthermore, if your DM really wants to screw you over, he can do that, regardless of what spellcasting mechanic is being used.

 

[rhammer2]

Considering the intelligence of dragons I would expect almost all dragons to pickup wizard levels.

Depends.

I'm playing in a campaign where we are going up against a very powerful dragon. We have been trying (rather unsuccessfully) to find out what spells that dragon was known to have cast.

If dragons cast spells as Sorcerers, you can know what spells to prepare for. If they are wizards, this isn't nearly as useful.
I would be rather annoyed if the GM never let me know that some dragons have been known to cast spells as wizards instead. I would think that the various tales of dragons would make it known what sort of magical powers a dragon can call forth. Taking advantage of player assumptions that match the type of information their characters would have been exposed to isn't all that clever.

 

[bret]

Where did I say the DM should never let the players know, or take advantage of player metagame knowledge?

You never did, nor do I see anyplace I suggested you did so.

I just intended to say that there would be enough differences visible to the characters between prepared spell casting and spontaneous casting that it would be reasonable for a character to know about it. If the GM changed this and gave no indication, that may not be fair to the players.

Furthermore, if your DM really wants to screw you over, he can do that, regardless of what spellcasting mechanic is being used.

Very true.

 

[Wolf72]

not to mention a few dragons can choose spells from the cleric list too ...

 

[Lord Ben]

Would a CR12 Dragon with 3 levels of sorceror be a CR15 creature?

 

[bret]

Would a CR12 Dragon with 3 levels of sorceror be a CR15 creature?

Many of them already are Caster level 3 or more by then.

This is when the various dragons get to caster level 3 as sorcerers:

Black CR10 Adult
Blue CR10 Young Adult
Green CR10 Young Adult
Red CR9 Juvenile
White CR11 Mature Adult


You can look up the rest either in the SRD or the Monster Manual.

A better question would be if you make an Adult Black Dragon a Sorcerer 6 (+3 caster level over normal), would it be CR13 or should it be higher?

In general, dragons are the toughest creatures at a CR level. Since they already have quite a bit of defense, upping their spell power could create a situation where the CR should go up by more than the added class levels.

 

[Voadam]

bret,

I'm not so sure you could pick up on differences between dragon wizards and sorcerers that easily unless they said "Damn, I wish I had prepared [X] spell this morning." or if they pulled out a spell book. Both sorcerers and wizards use the same verbal, somatic and material components and use the same spell list. The only other visual difference between the base classes is in simple weapons versus wizard weapons, which is not likely to be relevant in IDing dragons spell casting type.

Hong,

What are the precedents for sorcerer levels stacking with dragon spells cast as an X level sorcerer?