Dragons... has the icon been lost?
- Thread starter A'koss
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Raven Crowking
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I used to hate the fact that dragons could cast. Period. Now I see it as a necessary evil unless you tweak the hell out of them and give them very strong abilities. I think Mearls did a pretty good job with that. The thing that makes me so frustrated with the Dungeons and Dragon dragon isn't that it casts spells but rather that it has a breath weapon, 6+ attacks, 40+ Strength and 30+ Constitution yet the big tactic is magic, and a reliance on buffing and offensive magic to a ludicrous level.
Raven Crowking
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ruleslawyer
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Here are my thoughts:
1) Fight Club is not the place to look for "icons." The stated function of that column is to do weird and wacky things by tacking on templates and classes to monsters; expecting a particularly "dragonish" dragon from it is likely to bring disappointment.
2) As far back as in early 1e, people have been looking for ways to beef up dragons; the general consensus seems to have been that as players began exploring levels past 10th, dragons lost their place as interesting, deadly foes. It has been common practice for a long time to beef up D&D dragons by boosting spellcasting ability; as far back as Dragon 98, there were various suggestions for making dragons mightier spellcasting adversaries, including ignoring the percentage chance of speaking and spell use, making certain spells more powerful when cast by dragons, etc.
3) Even in 2e/3e, the spellcasting ability of dragons has always lagged behind their HD and CR (or the 2e equivalent; namely, the expected level at which PCs encountered x dragon).
Nonetheless, it is clear that dragons have been positioned in D&D as powerful spellcasters for some time. The 2e Draconomicon talked about how dragons have so many centuries to perfect their spellcasting that they should be more powerful spellcasters than suggested by the rules, and so on. I think there are two obvious reasons for this:
1) Spellcasting is D&D's big stick. One of the things that's always bothered me about D&D is that spellcasting ability really does make you the king pimp. It adds damage-dealing capability, versatility, social ability and skill replacement, [summoned or charmed] allies, and all manner of difficult- or impossible-to-counter tactics (time stop, prismatic wall, teleportation, etc.). Hitting things really just doesn't go as far. Until 3e, spellcasting was generally more powerful than monstrous spell-like abilities; only the solar had anything like the power and options available to a powerful wizard or cleric.
2) Spellcasting is practically de rigeur for "boss" type monsters, and the general consensus has put dragons consistently in that position. Again, spellcasting offers both power and versatility, and the latter is really a requirement for any leader-type monster. In order to prepare the kind of contingencies sufficient to thwart an enterprising group of adventurer-types (who, as noted earlier, are far more diversely capable than a typical knight-errant), the dragon needs to be able to summon elementals, create phase doors, teleport around, etc.
3) Legacy. Dragons have been spellcasters (as opposed to spell-like ability users) since 1e. This almost certainly has influenced the decision to keep them as sorcerers in 3e.
Now, that said, it's certainly a possibility to re-engineer dragons to emphasize their physical abilities; however, it will lower their threat level substantially. Yes, I know it seems weird to have every high-end dragon start combat invisible, levitating, dimension dooring, and surrounded by a horde of summoned allies and magical effects. OTOH, it does add to the survivability factor, which is a good thing for a CR 20+ monster. In order to keep dragons at the CR 20+ level while toning down their spellcasting ability, you have to boost other abilities. One idea is to give dragons massively increased SR, more substantial DR, build "buffed" stats into the book stats, give them immunity to several insta-kill effects, and grant them some kind of ranged attack capability, as well as give them some IH-style social feat abilities and appropriate summoned minions. Just giving them increased physical abilities will turn them into glorified giants; easy kills for well-prepared PCs who don't even need to get close to take them out.
1) Fight Club is not the place to look for "icons." The stated function of that column is to do weird and wacky things by tacking on templates and classes to monsters; expecting a particularly "dragonish" dragon from it is likely to bring disappointment.
2) As far back as in early 1e, people have been looking for ways to beef up dragons; the general consensus seems to have been that as players began exploring levels past 10th, dragons lost their place as interesting, deadly foes. It has been common practice for a long time to beef up D&D dragons by boosting spellcasting ability; as far back as Dragon 98, there were various suggestions for making dragons mightier spellcasting adversaries, including ignoring the percentage chance of speaking and spell use, making certain spells more powerful when cast by dragons, etc.
3) Even in 2e/3e, the spellcasting ability of dragons has always lagged behind their HD and CR (or the 2e equivalent; namely, the expected level at which PCs encountered x dragon).
Nonetheless, it is clear that dragons have been positioned in D&D as powerful spellcasters for some time. The 2e Draconomicon talked about how dragons have so many centuries to perfect their spellcasting that they should be more powerful spellcasters than suggested by the rules, and so on. I think there are two obvious reasons for this:
1) Spellcasting is D&D's big stick. One of the things that's always bothered me about D&D is that spellcasting ability really does make you the king pimp. It adds damage-dealing capability, versatility, social ability and skill replacement, [summoned or charmed] allies, and all manner of difficult- or impossible-to-counter tactics (time stop, prismatic wall, teleportation, etc.). Hitting things really just doesn't go as far. Until 3e, spellcasting was generally more powerful than monstrous spell-like abilities; only the solar had anything like the power and options available to a powerful wizard or cleric.
2) Spellcasting is practically de rigeur for "boss" type monsters, and the general consensus has put dragons consistently in that position. Again, spellcasting offers both power and versatility, and the latter is really a requirement for any leader-type monster. In order to prepare the kind of contingencies sufficient to thwart an enterprising group of adventurer-types (who, as noted earlier, are far more diversely capable than a typical knight-errant), the dragon needs to be able to summon elementals, create phase doors, teleport around, etc.
3) Legacy. Dragons have been spellcasters (as opposed to spell-like ability users) since 1e. This almost certainly has influenced the decision to keep them as sorcerers in 3e.
Now, that said, it's certainly a possibility to re-engineer dragons to emphasize their physical abilities; however, it will lower their threat level substantially. Yes, I know it seems weird to have every high-end dragon start combat invisible, levitating, dimension dooring, and surrounded by a horde of summoned allies and magical effects. OTOH, it does add to the survivability factor, which is a good thing for a CR 20+ monster. In order to keep dragons at the CR 20+ level while toning down their spellcasting ability, you have to boost other abilities. One idea is to give dragons massively increased SR, more substantial DR, build "buffed" stats into the book stats, give them immunity to several insta-kill effects, and grant them some kind of ranged attack capability, as well as give them some IH-style social feat abilities and appropriate summoned minions. Just giving them increased physical abilities will turn them into glorified giants; easy kills for well-prepared PCs who don't even need to get close to take them out.
A'koss said:
You hit the nail on the head.
Classic D&D (OD&D, AD&D, and 2nd Edition) were mostly about "iconic logic" -- monsters like ghosts, dragons, centaurs, and orcs that pretty much do what everyone who knows mythology/Tolkien knows they do. Obviously, they had some non-iconic stuff -- owlbears and rust monsters, for instance -- but these things were not created based on mixing and matching game rules, but rather by inspiration of game designers. (In the case of the owlbear and rust monster, they were created by Gygax when he was looking at model "dinosaurs" -- a giant sloth and a ankylosaur, I believe.)
3e is built much more on "metagame logic" -- stuff that only makes sense in the context of 3e D&D rules themselves. That's why we get things like half-dragon half-robot mystic theurge ninjas.
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
ruleslawyer
Registered User
How exactly are the rust monster, demilich, or the disenchanter *not* built on "metagame logic"?
VirgilCaine
First Post
haakon1 said:That's why we get things like half-dragon half-robot mystic theurge ninjas.
Your arguments might be more impressive if you refrained from stupid comments like this. That's like someone saying "fully automatic 9mm Magnum revolver"--you're tossing buzzwords together.
kigmatzomat
Legend
In the interest of pedantism: There is a 9mm Magnum round; 9x29.5 produced by Winchester and AMT in the late 70s. And an electrically operated gatling gun is a fully automatic revolver. Load one with 9x29.5 and you have a fully automatic 9mm magnum revolver.
Haakon's point (which I'm not sure I agree with) is that the layered template approach that could yeild a half-dragon/half-robot mystic theurge ninja is internally consistent to 3.x. If you substitute "construct" for "robot" you can have a half-dragon, construct mystic theurge ninja if you have a half-dragon (or dragon disciple) who takes levels in ninja, sorceror, cleric & mystic theurge as well as the GreenStar Adept (?) from Complete Arcane. Sure, it's like 20th level but completely viable mechanically.
Trouble is it tastes funny; like chocolate-covered liver&onion burritos. It isn't poison but it really isn't what anyone expects.
I'm not entirely sure the "spellcaster dragon" defeats many fantasy views of dragons as long as all that spellcasting goes on "off camera." Sure, the party may defeat the dragon's "mystic defenses" thanks to the mage but the dragon's magic really just augments their innate ability to slaughter foes with tooth, claw, and breath weapon.
Don't like it? Add more HD and take away the spells. Poof, the dragon now has more natural armor, hit points, stat points, BAB and damage. Which is pretty much what the spells do except this can't be dispelled. Add in the Epic Feats and the dragon should have enough special abilities to still be quite fearsome.
Haakon's point (which I'm not sure I agree with) is that the layered template approach that could yeild a half-dragon/half-robot mystic theurge ninja is internally consistent to 3.x. If you substitute "construct" for "robot" you can have a half-dragon, construct mystic theurge ninja if you have a half-dragon (or dragon disciple) who takes levels in ninja, sorceror, cleric & mystic theurge as well as the GreenStar Adept (?) from Complete Arcane. Sure, it's like 20th level but completely viable mechanically.
Trouble is it tastes funny; like chocolate-covered liver&onion burritos. It isn't poison but it really isn't what anyone expects.
I'm not entirely sure the "spellcaster dragon" defeats many fantasy views of dragons as long as all that spellcasting goes on "off camera." Sure, the party may defeat the dragon's "mystic defenses" thanks to the mage but the dragon's magic really just augments their innate ability to slaughter foes with tooth, claw, and breath weapon.
Don't like it? Add more HD and take away the spells. Poof, the dragon now has more natural armor, hit points, stat points, BAB and damage. Which is pretty much what the spells do except this can't be dispelled. Add in the Epic Feats and the dragon should have enough special abilities to still be quite fearsome.
