Dragons... has the icon been lost?

[BiggusGeekus]

Classic literary dragons don't have to deal with flying, teleporting, fireball throwing people who try to kill them though. A DnD adventuring party isn't the classic literary icon of the questing knight with a lance. So why should dragons be the same too?

I agree.

But then, that's why my group made the switch to Iron Heroes.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I personally dislike the Dragon as Wizard default. I especially don't see the need, when you could add class levels to the Dragon (though this would boost their HP significantly, due to high con mods). In my own game, I've eliminated the spellcasting, while leaving the spell-like abilities intact. I've thought of adding some other wrinkles - a difference between "combat brute" dragons and "spell-caster" dragons, offering a swap of abilities like swapping out the spell-casting for a second breath weapon and perhaps some other combat ability. I haven't worked out what to do, precisely, though.

 

[A'koss]

Now I knew that a topic like this would likely generate some strong opinions - it is the Dragon we're talking about here after all, but first and foremost - I didn't post this to tell anyone how to run their game. I'm simply interested in knowing what the general consensus was on how Dragons are being portrayed in 3e and maybe generate some lively discussion.

Now I don't believe that magic and Dragons is necessarily a bad thing but when I look at the tactics of the aforementioned Black Dragon it seems entirely un-Dragon-like. Here's an enormous, awesomely powerful flying creature spell-buffing itself up and teleporting around the battlefield. Hmmm... :\ Now if you look at the 3e dragon, they have a number of spell-like abilities that are, generally, in keeping with the dragon's flavor. If they're going to have innate magical ability, making sure it's appropriate with its theme I think is important.

Again, this is just how I feel about it.

Looking at first edition, yes some Dragons could cast spells, but for the chromatics (the dragons most PCs end up fighting) it was more likely not than so. Even for the mighty red it was only a 40% chance and the most ancient red that could... only cast two 1-4th level spells.

My feeling (again, just mine) is that I wish that spellcasting Dragons weren't the default assumption. Allow it to take class levels in Sorcerer, Wizard or whatever - fine, there's your spellcasting dragon. But when I think of classic, iconic western Dragon, they are monsters in truest sense. I don't believe that you need those spellcasting levels to take on higher level heroes if you build the dragon to make the very most of it's "natural" abilities.

Take the black dragon for example.

- Fly, then drop to the ground to create a minor earthquake (or at least enough to knock PCs off their feet)
- Throw, kick and create hurricane-like winds with it's wing buffet sending attackers all over the battlefield (damage and prone and possibly stunned).
- Use acid breath to create terrain hazards - pools and channels of acid emiting acidic, noxious clouds.

...etc.

I'm sure anyone with the time could come up with all kinds of ways to make the most out of the talents they already have.

Just my 2 bits.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Not when I am responding to a claim that D&D dragons have always cast spells, I'm not.

But they always have? Not all dragons at any period in time, but that's not true in 3.0 or 3.5 either.

 

[reanjr]

So now I wonder if this is the kind of dragon today’s DMs like to run and I’m just being too Olde School here... or does this resonate with anyone else in the same way?

I like my dragons either scheming or aloof. They are extraordinarily intelligent, but they primarily use this to play games. These games involve controlling nations from the sidelines and manipulating other intelligent beings to do their work for them. Basically, they are powerful, but physically lazy. Their minds are constantly moving though. I tend to give them utility spells that make their lives more entertaining or allow them to do something that they just wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Elric]

What, you never have anyone with Boost or Drain?

Not to get too side-tracked, but I do have a PC in the M&M game I run with Boost: it's usable as a Move Action, it's personal only, it lasts 10 minutes, and he only has 5 uses a day (and he's still bound by PL limits, although I let him exceed his normal PL limits by 1 with Boost). That's nothing like D&D buff spells.

As for Drain: M&M drain is very different from D&D Dispel because M&M drain doesn't just remove temporarily enhanced traits- Strength Drain will drain enhanced strength, regular strength, or temporarily Boosted strength.

If I wanted to create a dragon in M&M, I'd give it the Ritualist feat, which allows it to use powerful magic given quite a bit of time to prepare it. Then I might add a low level magic power- but the dragon doesn't need to feel like the Mystic PC archetype to be effective. It won't be casting mage armor every morning, that's for sure!

 

[VirgilCaine]

You've got me confused.

Or I've got you confused.

I was refuting that all dragons in D&D could always cast spells.

I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that dragons taken as a species, have had some subset able to cast spells ever since 1e. In the Basic book I have, dragons have a chance to cast spells. In 3e, younger dragons cannot cast spells.

 

[hamishspence]

how about planar dragons?

Planar dragons have most of the punch, minimal magic (just a few spell-like abilities) and haven't lost the intelligence.

Most of the early D&D Faerun novels have the dragon throwing a few minor spells, then going in up close and personal. "Spellfire" by Ed greenwood, has several dragons, some using magic, some not. And what might be, in hindsight, the first use of a metabreath feat:

Shargrailar the Dark, great red wyrm dracolich, blasts a nosy wizard with lightning from its jaws, before breathing fire repeatedly at the #######, one Shandril Shessair.

So, there is a little precedent.

Of course, some things in the novels are impossible in the game. R A Salvatore's Exile: Elder Brain killed by summoned panther. In game, CR 6 Panther vs CR 26 Elder Brain results in panther going squish.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed