dragons, tanglefoot bags & nets -oh my!

[kengar]

OK, first the references:

Tanglefoot bag

You can throw this round leather bag full of alchemical goo as a grenadelike weapon (see Table 7–10: Grenadelike Weapons, on this page, and Grenadelike Weapon Attacks, page 138). When you throw the bag against a creature (as a ranged touch attack), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient on exposure to air. An entangled creature suffers a –2 penalty to attack rolls and a –4 penalty to effective Dexterity. The entangled character must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even with a successful save, it can only move at half speed.

A character who is glued to the floor can break free with a successful Strength check (DC 27) or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A character trying to scrape goo off himself, or another character assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the character who hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo he happened to scrape off. Once free, a character can move at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a Concentration check (DC 15) to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 10 minutes.

Net

Net: A fighting net has small barbs in the weave and a trailing rope to control netted opponents. You use it to entangle opponents. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet, and you suffer no range penalties to throw it even to its maximum range. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature suffers –2 on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on effective Dexterity. The entangled creature can only move at half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding at an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can only move within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 15) or be unable to cast the spell.

The entangled creature can escape with an Escape Artist check (DC 20) that is a full-round action. The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a Strength check (DC 25, also a full-round action). A net is only useful against creatures between Tiny and Large size, inclusive.

A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you suffer a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so.

Now, the situation:

IMC, the party is going up against a Young Adult Black Dragon (Size: Large). The need to kill it as part of a geas. They are currently concocting some wacko plan involving several tanglefoot bags attached to a net and dropping this on the dragon.

Now, I don't want to stifle creative solutions to problems, and I honestly don't think this will hinder a dragon for very long, but I want to make some sense of this rules-wise before the encounter takes place.

Now, the basic effects of the TF bag and the net are similar (-2 attacks, -4 DEX). But here are the oddball issues I want to resolve:

• What would the effect of multiple tanglefoot bags be?
• What is the effect of the net and/or the bags on flight (and swimming) if the dragon is not immobilized, merely at half move?
• What is the effect of the net not having a trailing rope? This wouldn't be a standard PHB weapon net, rather more like a large fishing net.
• Would the effects of the net and the tanglefoot goo stack?
• Would one STR check break all the bonds or would the dragon need to break each "bag's worth" of goo that caught it, then the net?
• What kind of attack modifier would you give them for trying this? A melee net is an Exotic proficiency that none of them have, so a -4 seems a safe minimum.

I can ad hoc this in a lot of ways, but I was hoping for some feedback here before the session tonight so I could minimize the debate and stick to the action. Thanks.

 

[Zenon]

Unfortunately, the largest flaw I see in their plan is that one acid breath weapon attack from the dragon on their tanglefoot bag/net setup and it's going to melt, tanglefoot bag goo, nets & all.

IIRC, the dragon is immune to his own breath weapon so it won't hurt him to bathe himself in acid breath for a round to get free.

I would let them try it, but be sure you look up the relevant rules like hardness and hit points of objects, damaging objects (to see what takes 1/2 damage from certain attack forms), STR check DC's to burst ropes and nets. Remember that unattended objects get no save unless they're magical (which neither the nets or tanglefoot bags are).

Don't stifle creative players, but don't reward stupidity or lack of forethought either.

Besides, young dragons usually have older parents who will show up eventually (after the PC's have gained some levels)....

 

[kengar]

Oh, I fully plan on letting the dragon breathe on itself and melt the goo! That way it still has a Move-Equivalent for flying towards them rather than wasting a full round on a STR check

Like I said, I don't think their plan is going to keep the beastie trapped for very long, but I wanted to give them a fair shake rules-wise, rather than just saying "Well, it doesn't do any good at all. Tough noogies!"

 

[Darklone]

Oh, I fully plan on letting the dragon breathe on itself and melt the goo! That way it still has a Move-Equivalent for flying towards them rather than wasting a full round on a STR check

Big nono. No melee fight with a dragon. Will kill the beast pretty fast. Free yourself, lift off, buff spells, come down breathing or snatching

 

[kengar]

Well, the tactical of it is this: (Warning!! FoF Spoiler!!)





Big vertical shaft leading down to subterranean cavern where dragon lives (submerged lake & river).

Players enter onto ledge near top of shaft. They plan to annoy/bait the dragon into starting up the shaft, then drop the net on it.

My plan is when the dragon gets free, it will fly up towards them but stay airborne and harass them from there.

The dragon is an advanced version of Nightscale that near-TPK'd them before. They got resurrected but are now under a geas to kill the sucker and bring its heart to the priest.

 

[Murrdox]

I would allow the effects of the Tanglefoot bags and the net to stack. Also, someone posted earlier in a thread on Tanglefoot bags that 2 additional Tanglefoot bags are required for each increment in size - a very good idea since the rules for Tanglefoot bags don't specify size... one Tanglefoot bag is just as effective on a gargantuan creature as a medium. If the dragon is large, by that poster's rule (which I thought made good sense) The dragon would need 3 Tanglefoot bags to be affected by them.

Also, keep in mind the dragon's flight manuverability. All these minuses to speed and dexterity may force it to crash. I believe dragons have "Poor" manuverability, which means they have to move at least half their flight speed or else crash.