Dragons Through the Editions: An Analysis

[S'mon]

Fix spellcasting and then you have no problem with dragons that can cast spells.

Or I could play 2e.

 

[Aaron2]

Basic D&D dragons were more powerful than their AD&D cousins despite the fact that Basic D&D characters were less powerful than AD&D ones (forex Basic D&D fighters only got 1d8 hit point and THACO increased by +2/3 levels). Of course, Basic D&D was better than AD&D in just about every way.


Aaron

 

[Derren]

Or I could play 2e.

Where dragons still have spellcasting but is much more balanced compared to melee attacks.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Vascant]

The irony here is everyone is blaming the dragon and they are forgetting what seems to be the obvious problem, The DM.

It is just a stat block pure and simple, what makes a monster either a great foe or just a wreck is the DM so if you are having problems with your monsters perhaps you should look at who is playing the monster and not the monster. Changing Editions isn't going to solve the problem...

 

[Voadam]

For Perspective – the Pit Fiend Through the Editions

The pit fiend:

1E - AC -3; HD 13; 2 attcks (5-8/7-12); +2 weapons to hit; MR 65%; regenration; lots of at will spell like abilities plus a fear aura and 1/day symbol of pain.

2E - AC -5; HD 13; 6 attacks (1-4x2/1-6x2/2-12/2-8); +3 weapons to hit; MR 50%; regeneration; mosly the same spell like abilities and the fear aura is a little weaker.

3E – AC 40; HD 18; 6 attacks (2d8+13x2/2d6+6x2/4d6+6/2d8+6);Dr 15/good and silver; SR 32; regeneration; spell like abilities (the list is adjusted some with a heavier combat focus); fear aura.

I'd say the first two editions' pit fiends are comparable, with more shuffling of abilities and focus than an outright increase in power, while the 3E pit fiend gets a major combat boost. Again, this is relative to the PCs in 3rd edition.

Actually you left out the significantly weaker physically (but with more innate spell like abilities) CR 16 3e pit fiend. The 40 AC one with strong attacks is a CR 20 3.5 one.

Fiends got much stronger physically going from 3e to 3.5 so the 2e to 3e jump was originally not so big.

 

[Voadam]

Basic D&D dragons were more powerful than their AD&D cousins despite the fact that Basic D&D characters were less powerful than AD&D ones (forex Basic D&D fighters only got 1d8 hit point and THACO increased by +2/3 levels). Of course, Basic D&D was better than AD&D in just about every way.


Aaron

I remember my red book basic set had dragons that were comparable to AD&D ones IIRC. It was in the companion set that those were said to be only the weak young ones and older ones with more features like crushing, tail slaps, etc. came into the game.

 

[SuStel]

The 1E to 2E power increase, relative to player characters, of dragons indicates that the intent was to move the dragon to the upper end of the threat spectrum, to make it more than a stepping stone on the way to the more powerful creatures of the outer planes. Given the dragon's iconic position in the game, and fantasy in general, it seems a worthy goal.

If a dragon is too powerful for lower-level parties to deal with, then think of how long it'll have to be before the players of Dungeons & Dragons have to wait before they get to actually deal with a dragon. Some iconic monster! One that never appears...

 

[Aaron2]

I remember my red book basic set had dragons that were comparable to AD&D ones IIRC. It was in the companion set that those were said to be only the weak young ones and older ones with more features like crushing, tail slaps, etc. came into the game.

True, I used the term "Basic D&D" to refer to the BEMCI/RC version. Didn't dragons in the companion rules have the ability to land on top of you?

I remember an article in Dragon Magazine issue #50 (the first one I ever bought) that had rules for boosting a dragons melee power as well as a random table to generate "True Dragons" that were pretty beefy and less predictable. I wonder if anyone ever used those. Of course, that same issue had detailed rules on raising a pet dragon; rules that led to the worst adventure I ever wrote. One that handed out a gold-dragon egg to one of the players. Oi!

If a dragon is too powerful for lower-level parties to deal with, then think of how long it'll have to be before the players of Dungeons & Dragons have to wait before they get to actually deal with a dragon. Some iconic monster! One that never appears...

Just because a party can't squish a dragon like a bug doesn't mean that dragons never have to appear. Its just they take their rightful place as a major threat. Low level parties should "deal with" ogres, not dragons.

 

[SuStel]

Just because a party can't squish a dragon like a bug doesn't mean that dragons never have to appear. Its just they take their rightful place as a major threat. Low level parties should "deal with" ogres, not dragons.

All or nothing, huh? Near-godlike or squished like bugs. Nothing in between. Nope.

 

[Sitara]

Dragons SHOULD be midlevel encounters. Higher levels should be reserved for daemons, liches, vampre lords, deities and the most epic of all opponents: Other Heroic Classed Adventuring PArties.