Dragons

[Anubis]

Honestly, I think the Young Black Draqgon would be just as much a challenge for a Level 10 party as a Fire Giant would be, or very nearly so.

The Fire Giant can smash things, throws things, and hit hard. The dragon can do far more things at less power. Hover alone could turn the tide of a battle. A flying dragon could also cause a lot of damage.

Granted, though, my numbers SEEM far more accurate at higher levels than at lower levels, but then again, it has come to my attention that ALL CRs work that way. The ogre, which I modified to CR 3, is a perfect example. An ogre would probably wipe out a Level 1 party without difficulty. It could potentially defeat a Level 2 party. A Level 3 party would probably beat the ogre. A Level 4 party could smash an ogre to pieces effortlessly. Basically, CR at lower ranges means far more. That's why the numbers APPEAR to be inaccurate, when in actuality it's the variables that determine the vast array of power.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Honestly, I think the Young Black Draqgon would be just as much a challenge for a Level 10 party as a Fire Giant would be, or very nearly so.

The Fire Giant can smash things, throws things, and hit hard. The dragon can do far more things at less power.

I don't agree. I think a Fire Giant would be significantly more challenging.

Granted, though, my numbers SEEM far more accurate at higher levels than at lower levels, but then again, it has come to my attention that ALL CRs work that way. The ogre, which I modified to CR 3, is a perfect example. An ogre would probably wipe out a Level 1 party without difficulty. It could potentially defeat a Level 2 party. A Level 3 party would probably beat the ogre. A Level 4 party could smash an ogre to pieces effortlessly. Basically, CR at lower ranges means far more. That's why the numbers APPEAR to be inaccurate, when in actuality it's the variables that determine the vast array of power.

I don't use your system for CRs past 20, and I don't intend to do so. Because of this, I don't really care how well it extends to what you call CR 60, because that's not what I call CR 60.

Basically, your system is inaccurate in the only place I'd ever use it. (That is, unless you meant that it's accurate after CR 10 but before CR 21. If so, I'd have to see a list of what you consider CR 17, 18, 19, and 20 -- I know you've modified most of the high-CR monsters in the MM.)

 

[Xylix]

Honestly, I think the Young Black Draqgon would be just as much a challenge for a Level 10 party as a Fire Giant would be, or very nearly so.

I very much doubt a young black dragon would survive long enough to spit at a 10th level party.... Much less be a challenge. At 19 AC a 10th level figther can easily land two blows (+10 / +5, ~+4 str, +Focus, +2 weapon = ~ +17 / + 12 attacks)

Dealing an easy 13 or so damage a hit. Against those 85 hp the dragons have two fighters can wipe it out in two rounds like cutting mincemeat. That is without the aid of anyother support, which would likely be there...

On the other side fighers can easily have 24 AC and take only around, 6 or so damage a round.

At the same time the fighers should be toting at least 65 hp...


These numbers are guesses, but they aren't far off from potential reality. This is assuming basic tactics on the warrior's part.

Hover would do very little good, a DC 15 concentration check for a 10th level wizard should ALWAYS be a success.


At this point the dragon has very little in the way of special abilities, virtually guarnetting utter player domincance over it.

6 is probably a better measurement, as 9 is equally to high.

The Fire Giant can smash things, throws things, and hit hard. The dragon can do far more things at less power. Hover alone could turn the tide of a battle. A flying dragon could also cause a lot of damage.

A OLD dragon can do far more things. A young black dragon is not much better off than the fire giant. Infact, in ranged comabat the Giant is better with its ability to attack multiple times per a round.

Granted, though, my numbers SEEM far more accurate at higher levels than at lower levels, but then again, it has come to my attention that ALL CRs work that way. The ogre, which I modified to CR 3, is a perfect example. An ogre would probably wipe out a Level 1 party without difficulty. It could potentially defeat a Level 2 party. A Level 3 party would probably beat the ogre. A Level 4 party could smash an ogre to pieces effortlessly. Basically, CR at lower ranges means far more. That's why the numbers APPEAR to be inaccurate, when in actuality it's the variables that determine the vast array of power.

It is not a question of 'SEEM' in this case. It is quite blatent a 10th level party would not expend 10% of their resources killing a Young Black dragon.


The reason things are silly at low levels is because the fact the many things increase linearly. Most importanly are Attack bonuses, and HP, which quickly go from the point of 10-30% hit chance to overkill, and HP which increases by 100%, then 50% in two levels.

Against strong attackers, with decent AC, who wont miss the effects are dramatic. Until higher levels most heavy strength physical attackers are way underated in their CR, because the makers failed to account for the super high damage potential of these creatures.

 

[thomian]

Hey, thanks for the numbers Anubis. This gives me something to work off of.

--
Thomian who thought he pissed off the computer gods and now can stop breaking floppy disks in sacrifice to it to allow him to post again.

 

[Anubis]

I don't use your system for CRs past 20, and I don't intend to do so. Because of this, I don't really care how well it extends to what you call CR 60, because that's not what I call CR 60.

Well, using the core system as it is doesn't even work 1% of the time at such high levels. It starts inaccurate at Level 1, then gets accurate by Level 10-20 . . . Starts to get inaccurate until Level 40, and after that, it doesn't work AT ALL. Don't believe me? Put a Hecatoncheires against a Level 57 party. I guarantee the party won't even win 1 battle out of 10. Or out of 100 even.

Basically, your system is inaccurate in the only place I'd ever use it. (That is, unless you meant that it's accurate after CR 10 but before CR 21. If so, I'd have to see a list of what you consider CR 17, 18, 19, and 20 -- I know you've modified most of the high-CR monsters in the MM.)

Actually, what I've said here is about dragons ONLY, but is to be used in conjunction with the other changes. Those changes only have an effect on dragons with EPR of 20+, though.

Only demons, devils, and celestials have major changes, along with dragons. I also stuck the ogre and loxo at CR 3.

Anyway, if your Young Black Dragons can't hurt a Level 10 party, you're playing the dragon wrong, although the terrain is CERTAINLY a factor. In open spaces, dragons RULE. In caves, they're practically helpless. Dragons' strong points are thei maneuverability.

 

[Anubis]

I very much doubt a young black dragon would survive long enough to spit at a 10th level party.... Much less be a challenge. At 19 AC a 10th level figther can easily land two blows (+10 / +5, ~+4 str, +Focus, +2 weapon = ~ +17 / + 12 attacks)

Dealing an easy 13 or so damage a hit. Against those 85 hp the dragons have two fighters can wipe it out in two rounds like cutting mincemeat. That is without the aid of anyother support, which would likely be there...

On the other side fighers can easily have 24 AC and take only around, 6 or so damage a round.

At the same time the fighers should be toting at least 65 hp...


These numbers are guesses, but they aren't far off from potential reality. This is assuming basic tactics on the warrior's part.

Hover would do very little good, a DC 15 concentration check for a 10th level wizard should ALWAYS be a success.


At this point the dragon has very little in the way of special abilities, virtually guarnetting utter player domincance over it.

6 is probably a better measurement, as 9 is equally to high.



A OLD dragon can do far more things. A young black dragon is not much better off than the fire giant. Infact, in ranged comabat the Giant is better with its ability to attack multiple times per a round.




It is not a question of 'SEEM' in this case. It is quite blatent a 10th level party would not expend 10% of their resources killing a Young Black dragon.


The reason things are silly at low levels is because the fact the many things increase linearly. Most importanly are Attack bonuses, and HP, which quickly go from the point of 10-30% hit chance to overkill, and HP which increases by 100%, then 50% in two levels.

Against strong attackers, with decent AC, who wont miss the effects are dramatic. Until higher levels most heavy strength physical attackers are way underated in their CR, because the makers failed to account for the super high damage potential of these creatures.

Well, I think the problem is in the sample dragon, actually. The Young Black Dragon, which is CR 4 (CR 6 to some) is the same as the Very Young Red Dragon, CR and HD both. Yet the Very Young Red Dragon could do far more damage . . . The Very Young Red Dragon could seriously hurt the Level 10 Party. In my current campaign, the supposedly CR 2 Wyrmling Red Dragon is a challenge for my Level 5-6 party, so I know my numbers work for Reds and stuff.

These examples have given me thought. When I designed these numbers, I used Red Dragons as my template for determining CR. White Dragons and Black Dragons are far weaker than all other dragons . . . Line Breath and d4 breath is weaker actually . . . I'll come up with a few more modifiers and get back to you. The Black Dragon was and stuff were enlightening . . .

I'll look into it and report back.

 

[Xylix]

The real problem is the one size fits all approach, any attempt at CR rating needs to take into account two things:

#1 : Damage Absoption. This is through immunities, SR, AC, HP, or anything that negates the player's ability to deal damage. Anything that reduces the ability to take the creature down makes it more devestating to the player party.

#2: Damage infliction: Special abilities, raw attacks, death attacks, incapacitating abilities etc... The ability to use them, and the effectiveness when used.


The problem is your CR methode does not take this into account.


For instance a Very Young red dragon has more HP, slightly less AC, Slightly better saves, it damage capacity is about the same, only a touch better than the black dragon.

However, its damage infliction with higher BAB, more damaging attacks [averages bw +22%, ph +72%] averages more hits with its +2 more attacks. The Red dragon is definitely a more dangerous match. For damaging purposes to a group with an area breath, and heavy physical attacks it could easily beat a single 10th level figher, where the black dragon was questionable.


All of this must be taken into account. If the creature can be beaten by one person of the same level as the CR, it is probably too weak for the CR, if it can beat two people it is probably to high.

The real difficulty is when you deal with non-damge effects, or rarely applying defenses. For instance 'Acid' resistance is pretty much pointless to nearly all player attacks, however Fire resistance is different.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The real problem is the one size fits all approach, any attempt at CR rating needs to take into account two things:

#1 : Damage Absoption. This is through immunities, SR, AC, HP, or anything that negates the player's ability to deal damage. Anything that reduces the ability to take the creature down makes it more devestating to the player party.

#2: Damage infliction: Special abilities, raw attacks, death attacks, incapacitating abilities etc... The ability to use them, and the effectiveness when used.

It's clear, at least to me, that CR is proportional to the logarithm of the product of average damage dealt and hit points, as this determines the total capacity of the monster to damage players.

The hard part is incorporating AC and DR.

 

[Xylix]

Yes DR, and AC, and for that matter SR are difficult to chose because their effectiveness is dependent on the chosen CR.

For instance 15/+2 DR matters very little on a CR 13 encounter where you can be expecting the entire party to be easily equiped with all necessary weapons.

However, a creature near CR 1-3 with the same DR is nearly invulnerable and if compartible with other creatures on all other statistics is drastically underated due to its effective invulnerablity.

Likewise SR is the same.

In all likelyhood, I would probably scale the AC, SR, and DR with the assigned CR, and look at it from perspectives of CR+10 or similar equations.

Of course the problem is when addressing dragons is that fiddiling these numbers will cause great annoyance.

 

[Anubis]

Posted again further down with all corrections.