Dragons

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Marshall!

Dude, One(1) 83rd level Char, any class. Will wipe the floor with a great wyrm pris.

I beg to differ.

I actually rate the GWPD at CR 105.

I estimate a single 83rd-level character will only have 25% chance against it. (winning 1 out of every 4 such encounters)

Not that the CR is correct either,

On that we agree!

but there isnt a generic system that can account for all the variables needed to determine a reasonable CR without a spreadsheet and at least 20 min.

Actually there is; I have designed it. It takes me (approx.) 1 minute to determine any monster CR I would guess a few minutes for people unfamiliar with the system once they have read over it.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Using your system, here are the CRs for some black dragons:
Wyrmling 0
Very young 4
Young 8
Juvenile 13
Young adult 18

Sample stats:

Young adult black dragon: CR ?18?; Large Dragon (Water); HD 16d12+48; hp 152; Init +0; Spd 60 ft, fly 150 ft (poor), swim 60 ft; AC 24 (-1 size, +15 natural); Melee bite +19 (2d6+4), 2 claws +14 (1d8+2), 2 wings +14 (1d6+2), tail slap +14 (1d8+6); SA breath weapon, frightful presence, spell-like abilities; SQ water breathing, immunities, DR 5/+1, blindsight, keen senses; Face/Reach 5 ft by 10 ft / 5 ft; SR 17; AL CE; SV Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +11; Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +17, Concentration +19, Diplomacy +17, Escape Artist +16, Listen +17, Search +17, Spellcraft +17, Spot +17; Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Snatch.
SA–Breath Weapon (Su): Line of acid, 80 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 10d4, Reflex half DC 21.

Unfortunately, I can't give constructive/useful criticism of the accuracy of this CR because you have changed the CR of almost all MM creatures in its immediate range... would you be so kind as to list some MM or MM2 creatures you consider CR 17-18?

 

[Gez]

To go back on topic, I don't think dragon eggs would reach such lofty heights as those implied by Anubis' formula. A true dragon is going to be somewhat unreliable and dangerous, so it detracts from its value. Beside, the wannabe-owner knows very much he'll have to pay a higher price to the dragon itself once it hatches (dragons do enjoy their naps on hills of goldpiece and artistic items; if you don't want a angry dragon in your home, you'd better give him a mound of gold and treasure).

Beside, your DM may be reluctant with the idea of giving you between 100K and 300K gold for that little egg you carry.

I'll say rather a number between 40000 and 60000.

But more probably, you won't exchange a dragon egg against mere tons of gold. Few people (except other dragons) will actually have that much money in their reserve, even with banks system. You're more likely to trade it against a huge favor to the leader of a world-spanning merchant's guild, a title of nobility with lands to the Emperor of the Whole Continent, or a fabulous magical items to the Mysterious Enigmatic Archmage From Before Recorded History (that is, 100 years, because with all these pillaging orc hordes and marauding dragons, the local libraries aren't in a very good state).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

So a young black dragon (HD 10d12+20, Medium-size) is CR 10 under your system? It's listed as CR 4 in the MM, and the 'traditional' hack puts it at CR 6.

*****

Let's compare the young black dragon to some CR 10s in the MM:

Fire giant: 142 hit points, AC 21, +20/+15/+10 (2d8+15), reach
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....Giant's damage / dragon's damage
10.....3.3
15.....3.9
20.....5.2
25.....7.9
30...12.2

The two creatures have near-identical mental stats. The dragon has special abilities, but none are effective at range except its breath weapon (out to 60 feet) -- the giant is effective to greater distances with its rocks, which deal much more damage (72 if all hit, compared to 15 if the Reflex save is failed vs. the breath weapon). The giant has more feats.

The only real advantage the dragon has is flight.

*****

The CR 9 greater air elemental , perhaps, is the better comparison because of its own flight.

GAE: 178 hit points, AC 26, +23/+18/+13 (2d8+7)
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....GAE damage / dragon's damage
10.....2.2
15.....2.8
20.....3.9
25.....6.7
30...12.2

The dragon has 4 more Int than the elemental. The dragon has some special abilities, but none are as good as the air elemental's DR and immunities (as well as reach). The dragon's breath weapon is an advantage, but 15/7.5/0 damage (depending on the Reflex save and evasion) make it a nonissue.

Young Black Dragon CR 10 (EL 15*)
Fire Giant CR 12 (EL 16*)
Greater Air Elemental CR 17 (EL 18*)

*Modified EL obviously.

Email me and I will send you my CR/EL system mate.

 

[Xylix]

actually, most dragons are pretty equal in most departments, although there are a couple of questionable ones.

To a certain degree this is true, especially at the higher levels where the damage of the breath weapon is dominant.

However, in this particular point the same HD red dragon and black have a differance in raw PHYSICAL damage infliction rate of 72%, that is ignoring attack bonus, which the red also has the advantage with +2 greater to attack.

This makes them nearly 100% more effective in raw melee combat at eliminating enemies.

Your systems fails to take into account these jumping variations. I would probably add an additional modifier to your CR's taking into account the dragon size as well, because it does have an impact on the creatures power.


Next, your system does not quite take into the account the power of epic characters. Epic characters are DEVESTATING

Here is an example of a guess work Epic 44th level figher, which should not be able to beat a Great Wyrm red dragon according to your system...

Simple 44th lv Fighter
HP: ~638
~+51 / +46 / +41 / +36 attack
Dmg : ~1d8 +20 (crit 15-20, x2)
AC: ~40
Saves: ~+29 / +29 / +23

However, a 44th level figher almost IS a red dragon, ignoring the massive area damage. This is not including feats, a couple things like fast healing, damage reduction, energy resistance, or non + magic items could suddenly push the figher above such a red dragon.

Unless you are keeping with NPC lv = CR this is not good.

CR for the high creatures probably need to dip some. Keep in mind at 44th level that the SR of the dragon is now useless, so its it's AC. It certainly isn't a CR 25 encounter, but it probably is a CR 3X encounter.

 

[Anubis]

Note: I posted this again down here and deleted the old post because there were some errors that stuck some dragons below CR 1, which is just silly. I have corrected all errors and (I believe) perfected the system.



Actually, most dragons are pretty equal in most departments, although there are a couple of questionable ones. The main balancing factor here, however, is the BREATH WEAPON. The problem I had before was making calculations basedon the Red Dragon, one of the most powerful dragons in the game.

For the following numbers, remember that EPR (Effective Power Rating) is equal to CR from 1-20, but after that, the numbers change like so:

[COLOR=white]
    EPR --- CR     
   1-20 --- +1/Level
  21-40 --- +1/2 Levels
  41-80 --- +1/4 Levels
 81-160 --- +1/8 Levels
161-320 --- +1/16 Levels
[/COLOR]

The new system is based on the ELH designations of basic size groups (ELH page 179). That said, here is my revised system:

Lesser Dragons

Dragon HD : EPR

2 : HD - 1
3-4 : HD - 2
5-6 : HD - 3
7-10 : HD - 4
11-20 : HD - 2
21-40 : HD - 1
41-80 : HD

Ordinary Dragons

Dragon HD : EPR

3 : HD - 1
4-10 : HD - 2
11-20 : HD - 1
21-40 : HD
41-80 : HD + 1
81-160 : HD + 2
161-320 : HD + 4

Greater Dragons

Dragon HD : EPR

4-10 : HD - 1
11-20 : HD
21-40 : HD + 1
41-80 : HD + 2
81-160 : HD + 4
161-320 : HD + 8
321-640 : HD + 16


Modifiers for Lesser, Ordinary, and Greater Dragons

Dragon Size : Size EPR Modifer

Tiny : 0
Small : 0
Medium-Size : 0
Large : + 1
Huge : + 2
Gargantuan : + 4
Colossal : + 8
Colossal+ : + 16

Dragon Breath Weapon Increments : EPR Modifier

1d6 : +1 per 16 Age Categories
2d4 : +1 per 8 Age Categories
2d6 : +1 per 4 Age Categories
2d8 : +1 per 2 Age Categories
2d10 : + 1 per Age Category

[Note: Count Ability Dragon as 2d8 and Energy Dragon as 2d10 for purposes of this formula].



Epic Dragons

Epic Dragon HD : EPR

20-39 : HD
40-79 : HD + 1
80-159 : HD + 2
160-319 : HD + 4
320-639 : HD + 8
640-1279 : HD + 16
1280-2559 : HD + 32

Modifiers for Epic Dragons

Epic Dragon Size : EPR

Huge : + 1
Gargantuan : + 2
Colossal : + 4
Colossal+ : + 8

Epic Dragon : Breath Weapon EPR Modifier

Force : +4 per Age Category
Prismatic : +5 per Age Category



I think you'll all find this to work much better than the previous. Sorry for being so stubborn, but it's in my blood. I eventually come around and fix things! I believe you'll find this to be satisfactory. The weaker dragons are weaker, and the stronger dragons are stronger, perfect!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Using your system, here are the CRs for some black dragons:
Wyrmling 0
Very young 4
Young 8
Juvenile 13
Young adult 18

My system? The Asgard magazine article is the old system remember!

Unfortunately, I can't give constructive/useful criticism of the accuracy of this CR because you have changed the CR of almost all MM creatures in its immediate range... would you be so kind as to list some MM or MM2 creatures you consider CR 17-18?

If you pick out a dozen monsters I will give you the CRs for them.

But I don't have a list of every MM or MM2 CR (as I would advocate*)

*Most I am sure are very close (except for Dragons and Outsider types)

Maybe I can remember a few offhand..?

Cornugon CR 18 (EL 19)
Hezrou CR 16 (EL 18)
Storm Giant CR 19 (EL 19)

 

[Anubis]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!



Young Black Dragon CR 10 (EL 15*)
Fire Giant CR 12 (EL 16*)
Greater Air Elemental CR 17 (EL 18*)

*Modified EL obviously.

Email me and I will send you my CR/EL system mate.

I'll stick with the dragons for this debate, as I'm not gonna investigate the other two.

I changed my mind about the CR 10 Young Black Dragon NOT because of the Fire Giant argument, but because I did a comparison. A Young Black Dragon IS NOT CR 10.

Don't make me take you to Fight Club to prove it. A normal Level 10 party would mash a Young Black Dragon with little difficulty, as others here have pointed out. The thing is actually only about CR 6.

On a side note, an Ettin should be CR 9, being twice as powerful as a Hill Giant and all.

 

[Anubis]

To a certain degree this is true, especially at the higher levels where the damage of the breath weapon is dominant.

However, in this particular point the same HD red dragon and black have a differance in raw PHYSICAL damage infliction rate of 72%, that is ignoring attack bonus, which the red also has the advantage with +2 greater to attack.

This makes them nearly 100% more effective in raw melee combat at eliminating enemies.

Your systems fails to take into account these jumping variations. I would probably add an additional modifier to your CR's taking into account the dragon size as well, because it does have an impact on the creatures power.

I have taken such things into account. I revised the system after some reworking of the numbers.

Next, your system does not quite take into the account the power of epic characters. Epic characters are DEVESTATING

You are forgetting that Great Wyrms are strategic geniuses in the field of battle.

Here is an example of a guess work Epic 44th level figher, which should not be able to beat a Great Wyrm red dragon according to your system...

Simple 44th lv Fighter
HP: ~638
~+51 / +46 / +41 / +36 attack
Dmg : ~1d8 +20 (crit 15-20, x2)
AC: ~40
Saves: ~+29 / +29 / +23

However, a 44th level figher almost IS a red dragon, ignoring the massive area damage. This is not including feats, a couple things like fast healing, damage reduction, energy resistance, or non + magic items could suddenly push the figher above such a red dragon.

Not likely. This Great Wyrm Red Dragon may seem a match for that one character, but the Great Wyrm could actually take on four such characters just as easily. (Actually, a normal party would be pretty easy, although four Level 44 Fighters might do the trick.) Fast Healing will make little difference when you're taking 78 points of damage PER ROUND; damage reduction won't make a difference at all because the Great Wyrm could bypass is EASILY; evergy resistance might protect against the breath weapon, but not against the pphysical attacks and crush; other magical items will make little difference.

The Great Wyrm would jump and splat the party with Crush. I've seen it happen. Crush is DEADLY, and the fighters will most likely not be able to get out from under the thing. Even if they did, it'd rip them a new one. Six attacks per round that all hit on a 2 is pretty nasty, and the dragon knows how to use reach pretty good.

The Great Wyrm Red Dragon is EPR 61, CR 35.

Unless you are keeping with NPC lv = CR this is not good.

Level = EPR in my system for all normal characters. I bumped up NPC wealth to keep them on par with PCs. (Not quite, but close. NPCs have 50% the wealth of an equal PC.)

CR for the high creatures probably need to dip some. Keep in mind at 44th level that the SR of the dragon is now useless, so its it's AC. It certainly isn't a CR 25 encounter, but it probably is a CR 3X encounter.

I changed SR. No choice. Dragon SR is CR +9 (lesser), CR +10 (ordinary), CR +11 (greater), CR +12 (force), CR +18 (prismatic).

Also, SR and caster level checks of all sorts are done based on CR, not EPR/Level. Any other way and SR becomes useless or invincible after a certain point. That's for another topic though.

 

[Xylix]

On a side note, an Ettin should be CR 9, being twice as powerful as a Hill Giant and all.

As a player I have always despised Giants. They have absolutely insane damage potential. Creatures that can averagely take themselves out in a round should be banned from existance!!!

Heck, I am partial to those that can nearly do it. They leave unlucky parties at the crusp of death with the slightest mistake, and at the same time can go down far to easy leaving a GM with the decision of a non-challenging fight, or a risk of Total Party Wipe.