Dragons

[CRGreathouse]

U_K -- What kinds of characters do you use in testing your system?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I'm simply willing to admit when I've made a mistake, something you haven't done much of lately.

LOL!

Actually if you look about seven posts before this one you will see I just admitted a mistake.

You used to actually listen to other people, but that seems to have changed at this point.

I listen (and reply) to everyone, when have I not?

I am interested in seeing your whole system, though, because I do think SOME parts of it are valid. If anything, I can use what I think works and ditch the rest.

I have already send the article to about a dozen people. Email me and I will be happy to send you a copy. I would be very interested in your feedback?

I meant what I said. I doubt a Level 10 party would even use 10% of its resources against a Young Black Dragon. A Level 10 Wizard could easily have a Wand of Magic Missile Lv.9 that could do an easy 17 points of damage per round. The fighter would likely have a bow to use against the dragon if it flies, as would a rogue. The cleric has a number of abilities to choose from, and a single Searing Light would likely hit for 22 points of damage. All things considered the dragon would easily take over 50 points of the damage in the first round alone, using only ONE spell, ONE charge from a wand, and TWO arrows. Hardly 20% of the party's resources.

50 points of damage won't kill it though.

I contest that a Level 10 party would EASILY crush the Young Black Dragon, if anything because the thing's good abilities have yet to develop. Even the breath weapon does a mere 6d4 points of damage, which the rogue is likely to avoid altogether with Evasion. The others can survive easily as the dragon can likely target only one per round due to the line breath, which is crappy breath.

I agree a Level 10 (or rather CR 10) party would crush such a dragon. But I doubt they would so easily crush four such dragons!

Silly? The Ettin gets twice as many attacks at damn near the same attack bonus, which is likely to hit any ACs at that level anyway. Damage is nearly as high, but when coupled with double the attacks, it's devastating.

Ettin CR 7
Hill Giant CR 9

Ettin has less hp; weaker AC; weaker Attack Bonus and deals less damage (per attack).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xylix!

I stick with the standard definition, and redifine the rest of CR around that. Thus if ability scores are pertaininet to a 20-25% resources using ecounter I factor them in.

However 1,000,000 Int 1st level fighter with 10s on everything else does not have a pertainent stat, except perhaps the increased skill points, which is a minor issue.

As such it would have very little influence on its CR. Once could say I factor in ability scores indirectly.

Actually I disagree. If you were to roleplay such a character with 1 million intelligence correctly then there is no telling what the character could do.

It could build a legion of robots out of daisy chains; create a force field from the wind by using only his breathing techniques; make the worlds most powerful weapon from fertilizer and sugar.

It would be like having the four members of the A-Team rolled into one character and the whole world would be like one big garage of spare parts.

What makes you think the PCs could even get close to such a character he could outthink them at every turn - he would be the ultimate Chess Grandmaster.

That 1st level fighter is not a CR ~16,600 encounter. Despite his monsterous intelligence.

Instead of factoring ability scores you proably should factor in the things ability scores effect.

On the contrary if you roleplayed the 1 million Intelligence to its full potential it would be mind boggling.

There is not merely a choice between your system and the core rules.

I never said there was. My point (which I mentioned in a previous post in this thread) was that acknowledging such a system was necessary was more important than the system itself.

I see a problem when in cases eyeballing the creatures gives me a more accurate analysis. I am merely pointing out that your system is generating major flaws in hopes that by doing so that you will produce a system accurate enough that it supasses my eyeballing method.

I would like to hear what those major flaws are?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

U_K -- What kinds of characters do you use in testing your system?

For a quick fix usually fighters.

 

[CRGreathouse]

For a quick fix usually fighters.

What kind of stats, feats, and equipment do you typically use? (What fraction of wealth is usually spent on weapons, for example? What % on armor and other AC items?)

*****

I've been looking at ettins vs. hill giants, and I have to agree with your general stance, U_K. At AC 20+, the hill giant deals more damage. It has a lot more hit points and a better AC, and has Cleave.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

What kind of stats, feats, and equipment do you typically use? (What fraction of wealth is usually spent on weapons, for example? What % on armor and other AC items?)

Typically I use the DMG or ELH NPC stats up to 30th-level but amend the magic items.

Above 30th (50% str increases; 33% con; 17% dex).
Full inherant bonuses.
I usually min/max certain Epic Feats to make sure nothings broken.
Always maximum wealth weapon and armour.

Wealth = CR^3 x 100GP
Personal Equipment = Square Root of Wealth x 1550 GP
Most expensive item = 25 % of wealth.

eg. CR 50 fighter
Wealth: 12.5 million GP
Personal Equipment: 5.48 million GP
Max. Item Cost: 1.37 million GP
Weapon +8 (more likely +5/+5 non-epic)
Armour +11
Probably a +10 strength belt

I've been looking at ettins vs. hill giants, and I have to agree with your general stance, U_K. At AC 20+, the hill giant deals more damage. It has a lot more hit points and a better AC, and has Cleave.

When you get a chance let me know what you think of the CR/EL system - already had some useful feedback tonight that I will update into the pdf version next week.

 

[CRGreathouse]

When you get a chance let me know what you think of the CR/EL system - already had some useful feedback tonight that I will update into the pdf version next week.

I've gone over it; hopefully I'll get a chance to post ideas and suggestions tomorrow. There's a lot to consider!

The parts that I'm looking most heavily into are natural armor and DR/SR.

 

[Xylix]

Actually I disagree. If you were to roleplay such a character with 1 million intelligence correctly then there is no telling what the character could do.

It could build a legion of robots out of daisy chains; create a force field from the wind by using only his breathing techniques; make the worlds most powerful weapon from fertilizer and sugar.

It would be like having the four members of the A-Team rolled into one character and the whole world would be like one big garage of spare parts.

What makes you think the PCs could even get close to such a character he could outthink them at every turn - he would be the ultimate Chess Grandmaster.

Intelligence is limited by surrounding enviroment.

With 10 dex he would have as much control of his breathing technique as anyone else. He might understand the effect it would have on the weather in China, but would lack all the data to ever make that determination.

The robots would have their own CR, and that would be high.

Defeating him in a game of wits certainly would be a high CR encounter.

Unfortunately, Barbarian dude sticks an arrow in him before he can dodge. He hasn't the wisdom to estimate the moves of others, so that is unacheivable.


In otherwords he might make a great mastermind, and in that senario the MISSION might recieve the CR for his intellect. But a combat sneario between you and him? he is dead.

CR are for combat senarios you use differen't CR for all those nasty traps between you and him. The end would be quick and painless getting there would pump you up to 16,000th level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I've gone over it; hopefully I'll get a chance to post ideas and suggestions tomorrow. There's a lot to consider!

The parts that I'm looking most heavily into are natural armor and DR/SR.

Look forward to hearing the good the bad and the ugly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Xylix!

Intelligence is limited by surrounding enviroment.

So hes stupid enough to find himself in an environment not of his choosing?

With 10 dex he would have as much control of his breathing technique as anyone else.

I disagree.

He might understand the effect it would have on the weather in China, but would lack all the data to ever make that determination.

So with an intelligence of 1 million he couldn't work that out?

The robots would have their own CR, and that would be high.

Absolutely.

In fact his wealth would be:

Wealth: 457 Trillion GP
Personal Equipment: 33 Billion GP
Most Expensive Item: 8.2 Billion GP

Essentially representing a +640 weapon or +905 armour

Defeating him in a game of wits certainly would be a high CR encounter.

Definately.

Unfortunately, Barbarian dude sticks an arrow in him before he can dodge. He hasn't the wisdom to estimate the moves of others, so that is unacheivable.

Thats like being able to blow up the death star without having to make the approach or trench run.

In otherwords he might make a great mastermind, and in that senario the MISSION might recieve the CR for his intellect. But a combat sneario between you and him? he is dead.

CR are for combat senarios you use differen't CR for all those nasty traps between you and him. The end would be quick and painless getting there would pump you up to 16,000th level.

If you amputate the realistic effects of his intellect then you are simply not doing the character justice.