Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
4E: simplifying D&D rules ...
Dragonshield Tactics
- Thread starter Nytmare
- Start date
Kwalish Kid
Explorer
Well, the rules are simplified. It's just the combination of rules and exceptions that gets complicated.Olgar Shiverstone said:
Okay, so I can sort of accept the logic here, and it even makes some amount of sense from a simulationist perspective (I really don't care, I'm just saying...). If you approach slowly, and then wind up to use a power, the DS sees it coming, and backs away. If you charge in quickly, and strike as you're coming in, he can't evade in time.
However ... unless I explicitly explain what's going on (rules-wise) to the players, how are they EVER going to understand this distinction. If I was a player, and didn't have a grasp of the set of rules that the DM was using to arbitrate this power (especially because it can only be used once / turn), it's going to seem like the DM is just randomly denying people attacks at his whim, depending on the phase of the moon. I guess I can try to explain it in-character, but I'm still a little concerned.
As for my last question (re: exactly what kinds of movement trigger the power) ... I guess I find it odd that the power allows them to pursue a fleeing opponent (but only if that opponent escapes via shifting!), and allows them to evade an approaching opponent (but only if that opponent approaches NOT via shifting!)... Again, with the subtlety of the triggers (interpreted strictly as written), players have no hope of understanding the mechanics of the power. And if the game (as other threads repeatedly stress) is about making smart tactical decisions ... it's sort of unfair when the rules that govern those tactics are completely opaque.
However ... unless I explicitly explain what's going on (rules-wise) to the players, how are they EVER going to understand this distinction. If I was a player, and didn't have a grasp of the set of rules that the DM was using to arbitrate this power (especially because it can only be used once / turn), it's going to seem like the DM is just randomly denying people attacks at his whim, depending on the phase of the moon. I guess I can try to explain it in-character, but I'm still a little concerned.
As for my last question (re: exactly what kinds of movement trigger the power) ... I guess I find it odd that the power allows them to pursue a fleeing opponent (but only if that opponent escapes via shifting!), and allows them to evade an approaching opponent (but only if that opponent approaches NOT via shifting!)... Again, with the subtlety of the triggers (interpreted strictly as written), players have no hope of understanding the mechanics of the power. And if the game (as other threads repeatedly stress) is about making smart tactical decisions ... it's sort of unfair when the rules that govern those tactics are completely opaque.
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Stalker0 said:
That's a very good question! My guess would be no. Underneath forced movement on page 11, it states that it is not a move. It also seems to break every other rule in existence in terms of ignoring OA's and ignoring difficult terrain. Based on all that I wouldn't think it would actually take into account other powers. I could be wrong but thats how I look at it at this point. If anyone has an argument in favor, feel free to post it as this is just an educated guest.
osmanb said:
I would say these kobolds with the shields had taken a couple fencing classes. The ability allows them to advance and retreat decently enough to maintain distance with a single foe. When that foe backpedals, the kobold advances. When that opponent advances, the kobold backpedals.
I disagree with the statement that shifting is not considered moving. I believe it IS, just a special cautious type that doesn't provoke normal OAs. My reasoning: it moves you (uh-hyuk), it can't be used when immobilized, and it uses not a Standard, not a Minor, but a Move action to perform. Therefore, I think shifting next to the kobold WOULD trigger their ability if it hadn't been used yet that turn, allowing them to counter-shift and maintain range (because what are kobolds if not cowards).
Edit: Several responses appeared while I was typing. Anyways, I do agree that any adjacent shift should trigger the power, just to cut down on the number of exceptions built into the rules of this power. ... original rant (mostly directed at Dragonshields and their silly power) follows...
I understand that it only happens once per turn, and that helps the players overcome the ability, but not because they're making smart tactical decisions. It just lets them bypass a limitation of the power by luck. My real problem is that the primary ability of Dragonshields is this power, and the rules that govern it are incredibly complex to understand. I'm not talking about the DMs position - I understand all of the rulings and intricacies of the power at this point. I'm talking about the player that isn't privy to that information.
From a player's perspective, who's trying to understand what the capabilities of the monster are (so that they can make intelligent tactical choices), the Dragonshield's ability can easily be perceived as random DM fiat.
Round 1: Rogue walks up to DS to get flanking. DS shifts away. Rogue is sad, and scratches his head, then throws his dagger, doing non-sneak attack damage. Fighter isn't sure what to make of it, but he was already close by, so he shifts into position next to the DS. Waits for the DM ... who says that nothing happens. Fighter attacks the DS.
Players deduce that whatever happened can only occur once per turn.
Round 2: Players really want the Rogue to get his sneak attack, so they have another character join the fight, to trick the DS into wasting his power. Paladin (also nearby) shifts into melee with the DS. ... DM does nothing, because the silly triggering rules don't allow him to shift away in this case. Okay ... players conclude that maybe the power only works once per encounter. Rogue circles around and gets into flanking position with the Palading. The DS shifts away.
Seriously, unless I flat out explain the intricacies of this power to my players, they're going to feel crippled by lack of information and understanding. They're also probably going to punch me in the face.
I understand that it only happens once per turn, and that helps the players overcome the ability, but not because they're making smart tactical decisions. It just lets them bypass a limitation of the power by luck. My real problem is that the primary ability of Dragonshields is this power, and the rules that govern it are incredibly complex to understand. I'm not talking about the DMs position - I understand all of the rulings and intricacies of the power at this point. I'm talking about the player that isn't privy to that information.
From a player's perspective, who's trying to understand what the capabilities of the monster are (so that they can make intelligent tactical choices), the Dragonshield's ability can easily be perceived as random DM fiat.
Round 1: Rogue walks up to DS to get flanking. DS shifts away. Rogue is sad, and scratches his head, then throws his dagger, doing non-sneak attack damage. Fighter isn't sure what to make of it, but he was already close by, so he shifts into position next to the DS. Waits for the DM ... who says that nothing happens. Fighter attacks the DS.
Players deduce that whatever happened can only occur once per turn.
Round 2: Players really want the Rogue to get his sneak attack, so they have another character join the fight, to trick the DS into wasting his power. Paladin (also nearby) shifts into melee with the DS. ... DM does nothing, because the silly triggering rules don't allow him to shift away in this case. Okay ... players conclude that maybe the power only works once per encounter. Rogue circles around and gets into flanking position with the Palading. The DS shifts away.
Seriously, unless I flat out explain the intricacies of this power to my players, they're going to feel crippled by lack of information and understanding. They're also probably going to punch me in the face.
osmanb said:
Good tactics often start off as dumb luck, then become something deliberate once the players find out the trick. It is a lot less complex than it looks (especially with my assumption that shifting triggers just like any other movement).
That's why all good GMs punch their players in the face FIRST. It keeps them in their place, ensuring your tyrannical rule. Don't be afraid to make examples of the rabble-rousers; players are a dime a dozen!
/oldschoolin' itSimilar Threads
