Dragonshield Tactics

[Vendark]

I think some people are seriously overthinking this power.

The triggering action is "an enemy moves adjacent." An enemy moves adjacent, Dragonshield Tactics triggers. There's nothing there to suggest a Dragonshield must (or even can) wait until the move action is entirely complete before making the shift.

The fact that it's a reaction instead of an interrupt does not mean we should interpret the triggering action ("an enemy moves adjacent") differently. It just means that the Dragonshield Tactics power cannot prevent the triggering move from taking place.

The way people are interpeting this power is complicated, confusing, silly, and somewhat contrary to the role the Dragonshield is supposed to play. It's essentially a defender; it is not meant to be dancing away from blows, it's mainly supposed to be taking them on the chin.

 

[dervish]

If an Immediate Reaction trigger after the whole triggering action has been resolved, the Flame Jet trap previewed on the wizards site is far less dangerous as it is extremely unlikely that anyone will ever be hit by it. You simply stroll down the hall and after you finish your move action, the trap erupts behind you with no damage. I don't think that's what's intended.

Instead, I believe that an Immediate Reaction is triggered just after the triggering action (a ranger can use Fox's Cunning after being hit by only one of the Pit Fiend's two attacks, or the Flame Jet trap triggers the moment you enter the triggering square).

After a character approaches the Dragonshield and is standing adjacent to him, the Dragonshield can shift away from him. The approaching character can then continue his move if he still has movement left. Now the charging part is a bit tricky. As part of the charging action is a move it would trigger a shift from the Dragonshield. The KotS quickstart rules state that "...you must charge to the nearest unoccupied square from which you can attack the enemy." This would indicate that you can indeed continue your charge, as long as you have movement left, and the space you move to is the closest one to your starting position.

That's my pocketfull of change about the subject. I might be wrong as usual.

 

[Markn]

Round 2: Players really want the Rogue to get his sneak attack, so they have another character join the fight, to trick the DS into wasting his power. Paladin (also nearby) shifts into melee with the DS. ... DM does nothing, because the silly triggering rules don't allow him to shift away in this case. Okay ... players conclude that maybe the power only works once per encounter. Rogue circles around and gets into flanking position with the Palading. The DS shifts away.

OK, I don't understand this part. The paladin shifts adacent to the kobold. The kobold could then use his ability. I don't think it matters if he moves to the kobold or shifts to the kobold. The only thing that matters is shifting away as that is explicitly stated. Also keep in mind, the kobold does NOT have to use its power with the first person triggering the ability. If the kobold knows the rogue can inflict a whole lot more damage he could choose to hold off assuming the rogue may try to move adjacent. If the rogue does not, then too bad for the kobold. It's a bit of a chess game.

 

[Markn]

I think some people are seriously overthinking this power.

The triggering action is "an enemy moves adjacent." An enemy moves adjacent, Dragonshield Tactics triggers. There's nothing there to suggest a Dragonshield must (or even can) wait until the move action is entirely complete before making the shift.

The fact that it's a reaction instead of an interrupt does not mean we should interpret the triggering action ("an enemy moves adjacent") differently. It just means that the Dragonshield Tactics power cannot prevent the triggering move from taking place.

The way people are interpeting this power is complicated, confusing, silly, and somewhat contrary to the role the Dragonshield is supposed to play. It's essentially a defender; it is not meant to be dancing away from blows, it's mainly supposed to be taking them on the chin.

I can see your point. It comes down to definition of action. By action, do the designers mean action as in move, standard, minor or action as in the player moves to the PC which triggers the ability, then the player finishes his move action. Personally I see this as the standard/move/minor type. I would love for WotC person to confirm the actual reading however. Until then, this is my take.

 

[Azurecrusader]

I think some people are seriously overthinking this power.

The triggering action is "an enemy moves adjacent." An enemy moves adjacent, Dragonshield Tactics triggers. There's nothing there to suggest a Dragonshield must (or even can) wait until the move action is entirely complete before making the shift.

The fact that it's a reaction instead of an interrupt does not mean we should interpret the triggering action ("an enemy moves adjacent") differently. It just means that the Dragonshield Tactics power cannot prevent the triggering move from taking place.

While I agree that people are over thinking the whole thing, your comment about the power being a reaction vs. and interrupt being meaningless is way off base. Immediate Reaction is defined differently than and Immediate Interrupt in the KotS quick start rules. By saying that the power is an Immediate Reaction (which it does), it is pretty clear that the designers intended the power to be used directly after the completion of a move action. This is different than calling it an Interrupt which would indicate that the move action pauses, the dragonshield shifts, and then movement resumes.

This isn't a hard rule in my mind, based on a strict interpretation the following can happen:
1. The Dragonshield can shift away from an incoming basic move action, thus avoiding the followup attack (a new action, per the rules).
2. The Dragonshield can shift away from a PC's shift away. That is, if a PC uses a move action to shift a square outside of the threatened spaces of the Dragonshield, the Dragonshield can shift at the end of the PC's shift.
3. A Dragonshield cannot shift away from a charge, the rogue ability to move and attack or any other sort of single action that combines movement with an attack. These actions are a single action, meaning that the Dragonshield's ability does not trigger until after the attack is complete.
4. A Dragonshield cannot shift more than once per round, per the rules of an Immediate action (one per round).

The only challenging part of this rule is whether or not the Dragonshield can shift after a charge attack or rogue ability, etc. The ability says specifically "or an enemy moves adjacent". I would read this as a move action, so a Dragonshield could only shift as the direct response to any actions that can be taken as a Move Action (shifting and moving), but not in response to forced movement, charging, etc. This I can certainly see some disagreement on though.

 

[Vendark]

While I agree that people are over thinking the whole thing, you comment about the power being a reaction vs. and interrupt being meaningless is way off base. Immediate Reaction is defined differently than and Immediate Interrupt in the KotS quick start rules. By saying that the power is an Immediate Reaction (which it does), it is pretty clear that the designers intended the power to be used directly after the completion of a move action. This is different than calling it an Interrupt which would indicate that the move action pauses, the dragonshield shifts, and then movement resumes.

No, an interrupt would indicate that the power goes off before the enemy's move adjacent completes, which would be confusing, since it would possibly allow the Dragonshield to shift into the square the enemy was trying to move into, or to shift away before the adjacent move so that an adjacent move never actually occured at all, leading to a paradoxical chicken-and-egg argument. In other words, Dragonshield Tactics is a reaction because it makes no sense as an interrupt.

Read the rules on immediate actions again, and you'll see that it says that the individual powers define what the triggering action is. Dragonshield Tactics defines the triggering action as when "an enemy moves adjacent." That's it. The reaction takes place after that specific triggering action completes: when an enemy moved adjacent.

The fact that the triggering action is merely a subset of a larger move action is irrelevant.

 

[Hawke]

I'm going to murky the waters even more...what if forced movement is involved?

If a pc gets pushed adjacent to a dragonshield, can they now shift away?

It is my understanding that Push/Pull/Slide are NOT moves, do not trigger opportunity attacks, and would not trigger dragonshield tactics. See page 5 of the quick-start included.

 

[Gargoyle]

4E: simplifying D&D rules ...

Seems much simpler to me. We're a bit like blind men discovering an elephant for the first time...

From what I've seen and heard, the learning curve won't be nearly as bad as for 3e.

 

[osmanb]

Okay, so I think that I actually agree with most people, now that folks have expressed their feelings on the two triggers (with slightly different terminology). I was still complaining, because in my original post, I asked about the 'shift away' vs. 'move adjacent' phrasing, and only one person seemed to respond (and indicate that it should be run RAW).

Making any sort of movement adjacent to the DS trigger the power certainly simplifies things (for both the DM and the players).

Although now I'm getting more and more worried in general ... The KotS rules have kicked off several threads about things that are at best ambiguous. I've been assuming that everything would become clear on 6/6, but I'm somewhat scared that I'm going to read the PHB, and still be confused (or constantly making up rulings). Or did they just edit out too much context and supporting material in their attempt to fit the rules into the module?

 

[Eldorian]

I think some people are seriously overthinking this power.

The triggering action is "an enemy moves adjacent." An enemy moves adjacent, Dragonshield Tactics triggers. There's nothing there to suggest a Dragonshield must (or even can) wait until the move action is entirely complete before making the shift.

The fact that it's a reaction instead of an interrupt does not mean we should interpret the triggering action ("an enemy moves adjacent") differently. It just means that the Dragonshield Tactics power cannot prevent the triggering move from taking place.

The way people are interpeting this power is complicated, confusing, silly, and somewhat contrary to the role the Dragonshield is supposed to play. It's essentially a defender; it is not meant to be dancing away from blows, it's mainly supposed to be taking them on the chin.

This is how I ran it last night. It seemed the only way to do it. I have no idea what the rest of you are spouting off.

If a character moves into a space adjacent to a dragonshield, he shifts. this does NOT stop the character from continuing to move if they have more movement. I did not interpret the word "moves" into some sort of game defined word, just the plain old English word move. IE: an example of this power: a party member walks up to a dragonshield using 4 of his movement, the dragonshield shifts away, the party member completes his movement. This ability is used to deny flanking and to set up OAs, not to make you immune to attacks simply by walking away.

They way it seems most of you are reading it, it would actually have to read "when an enemy ENDS it's movement adjacent, then the kobold may shift." If you walk past a dragonshield, he makes a OA and then shifts.