Dread Necromancers and Animate Dead

[moritheil]

Thanks.

Does anyone have a list of the creatures that you can create with animate dead? By core they are just zombies and skeletons, but the Draconomicon includes dragon skeletons and dragon zombies, which follow different rules it seems.

LM and possibly BoVD add undead variety.

 

[Elemental]

Use Skeletal + Zombie Dragons from Draconomicon. Slightly superior to standard skeletons/zombies, no limit to Hit Dice. And the zombies advance using standard HD, not double HD. And can fly, have weaker breath weapon, spell resistance. Problem solved.

I can't recommend using these if you have any respect for the DM. Vastly superior to a regular zombie or skeleton of the same creature for no extra cost in animation or controlling. They have NO hit dice limit, retain dragon BAB, saves and some special attacks, and have extra hit points. And the zombie dragon retains a version of it's breath weapon that deals half damage, but is unchanged if it doesn't deal direct damage. This can become horrible if you have a dragon type with a non-energy breath, such as the shadow (negative levels), silver (paralysis) or pyroclastic (disintegration) dragons.

Let's say we have a level 10 Dread Necromancer with Charisma 18. They can control 80 hit dice of undead. That's two Great Silver Wyrm Skeletons, with an attack routine of bite +50, 2 claws +45, 2 wings +45 and a tail slap +45. Alternatively, if they're a zombie dragon, they can breathe a DC 40 cone of paralysis gas.

Seriously broken stuff, especially when you start escalating the HD (yes, you could take extreme measures to ensure that the PC never finds a dragon corpse, but banning is much less effort, and more honest).

 

[moritheil]

I can't recommend using these if you have any respect for the DM.

You don't show respect for the DM by bringing your A game?

 

[takasi]

You don't show respect for the DM by bringing your A game?

To be fair, the DM should be able to do the same trick at the same CR. As a player would anyone find this to be a fair fight?

 

[moritheil]

To be fair, the DM should be able to do the same trick at the same CR. As a player would anyone find this to be a fair fight?

I usually do the same things as a DM that my players do, though I warn my players beforehand that if there is to be min-maxing on one side of the fence, it will occur on both sides.

As a player? I assume if you were pulling this as a DM you'd allow me to build, say, a nova cleric, which would mean the entire combat would come down to winning initiative.

 

[takasi]

There's no way a nova cleric could have a chance with this. No chance....

 

[IanB]

It seems to me in most of the games I've played in, there would be two MAJOR drawbacks to this plan:

- severe roleplaying consequences (pissing off the local clerics et. al.)
- difficulty in obtaining appropriate bodies

As a DM I would have a very hard time telling a player they could just go out and get 10 chimera corpses easily. Access to that sort of thing would probably not be nearly as optimal as would be needed for a 'perfect' build.

 

[Kurotowa]

- difficulty in obtaining appropriate bodies

So very true. Just where is a 10th level character going to acquire two dead great wyrm dragons from? Or these packs of rare monsters? Sure, the necromancer can try to talk the party into going a side quest to hunt down some of them. But that's time away from real adventures, and is just as under the DM's control as any other treasure distribution.

The one limitation is the DM can't throw any monster at the party he isn't willing to let be animated again. I had a Dread Necromancer in a short lived game, and was rather annoyed when the DM pulled a fiat to prevent me from animating the two-headed T-Rex that had just chewed through half our party before going down.

 

[moritheil]

There's no way a nova cleric could have a chance with this. No chance....

The undead have what, 40 HD each? I admit it isn't likely in actual game conditions, but it's theoretically possible to take them both out in one round. That indicates a chance.