D&D General Drow as in Cow or Drow as in Snow: Where did the Dark Elves Come From?

[gban007]

OH NO! What happened to Snarf's account!?

Snarf was talking about taking a break for a week - may have requested a Mod to do temp ban so wasn't tempted to come back and post?

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Incomplete Enchanter is notable for two things. One is the protagonists taking a scientific approach to magic and thereby attaining great mystical might. The other is being a pioneer in thinly disguised self-insert fanfic via the "all our stories are real somewhere in the multiverse" scenario.

It's been a few decades since I read them, and I really suspect they'd show their age if I were to pick them up again. But they're definitely very influential in a lot of ways.

It also notable for being one of the only, if not the only, fantasy stories with a psychologist for a protagonist.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The black coding is problematic but I've always explained it as drow develop a sleek chitinous layer over their otherwise pale skins

I wouldn't mind seeing that idea being played up. It doesn't even have to be always black.

 

[Demetrios1453]

No, he has taken some self-imposed time off, its in the pineapple express thread.

I think everyone who frequents here had their eyes bug out upon seeing the ban strikeout over Snarf's name. I mean, they're about the last poster I could imagine getting a ban! Thankfully it's just temporary and self-imposed...

 

[KoolMoDaddy-O]

Something that struck me during a recent reread of the GDQ modules is that Gygax presents drow clerics who are male, whereas Salvatore and Greenwood restrict the priesthood of Menzoberranzan to females only. Overall Gygax's Erelhei-Cinlu hews closer to chaotic evil in tone, suggesting a brutal meritocracy similar to Star Trek's Mirror Universe, whereas Menzoberranzan is more lawful evil with strict caste systems and rigid sex roles -- so in a weird way I find Gygax's vision less sexist. Who woulda thought.

Regardless I like my drow 70s style: jet black skin, white eyes without pupils, and -- for the men -- big handlebar mustaches that will get them free drinks in the West Village.

 

[billd91]

Something that struck me during a recent reread of the GDQ modules is that Gygax presents drow clerics who are male, whereas Salvatore and Greenwood restrict the priesthood of Menzoberranzan to females only.

At least an element of the sex role differences between male and female drow long predated the Drizzt books. Unearthed Arcana's info on using drow as PCs limits male drow clerics to fairly low levels while female drow are unlimited. And even in D3, the more powerful clerics are female, as are the more powerful fighters, and the more powerful wizards are male.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

At least an element of the sex role differences between male and female drow long predated the Drizzt books. Unearthed Arcana's info on using drow as PCs limits male drow clerics to fairly low levels while female drow are unlimited. And even in D3, the more powerful clerics are female, as are the more powerful fighters, and the more powerful wizards are male.

It definitely originated with Gygax, although it was the Forgotten Realms novels and supplements that really stood on the gas pedal.

The Vault of the Drow is much more chill than its Forgotten Realms counterparts.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Drow are black because they were cursed by Corellon (who is a dick). It's a thinly-veiled rewriting of Apollo cursing the crows to be black and birds of ill omen because he sent a (then regular, colorful) crow to spy on his lover (Coronis?) and the crow reported she was cheating on him. So, because Apollo was as much a dick as Corellon, he cursed the newsbearer who was just doing his job.

It is possible that the 70s American author of the drow story associated obsidian-black people with white hair with people of African descent, but it doesn't mean the story, which predates meeting with people of African descent (I don't think ancient greek peasants being told the tales had a lot of contact with them or even knew they existed) has such a baggage.

Also, I find the analogy of black coming from black widow, and the matriarchy coming from the practice of eating its male after mating to be more compelling, with "eating your mate = evil", rather than a reflection of matriarchy = evil, which I think is a much more intellectual reading of the situation than the origin of the story, even if the author was a 70s typical mysogynist racist US person.

 

[Clint_L]

never mind

 

[Zardnaar]

Drow are black because they were cursed by Corellon (who is a dick). It's a thinly-veiled rewriting of Apollo cursing the crows to be black and birds of ill omen because he sent a (then regular, colorful) crow to spy on his lover (Coronis?) and the crow reported she was cheating on him. So, because Apollo was as much a dick as Corellon, he cursed the newsbearer who was just doing his job.

It is possible that the 70s American author of the drow story associated obsidian-black people with white hair with people of African descent, but it doesn't mean the story, which predates meeting with people of African descent (I don't think ancient greek peasants being told the tales had a lot of contact with them or even knew they existed) has such a baggage.

Also, I find the analogy of black coming from black widow, and the matriarchy coming from the practice of eating its male after mating to be more compelling, with "eating your mate = evil", rather than a reflection of matriarchy = evil, which I think is a much more intellectual reading of the situation than the origin of the story, even if the author was a 70s typical mysogynist racist US person.

Curse didn't originate with Gary. It came in 3E and FR.