drowning a Fire elemental

[italianranma]

I'm trying to create a new spell (it's in the house rules forum; http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101487) and an interesting point was brought up. Do creatures made of fire suffer any ill effects from being submersed in normal water? I looked around a little, and I didn't find any reference to this. Does anyone know of any rules on this?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Generally, nope.

In fact, they probably do more damage to the water than the water does to them.

The closest thing I can find to such a rule would be:

A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it.

EDIT:

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are asking. If you just throw water on a Fire Elemental, what I said above applies - no real damage is done.

But, by the above rule, teleporting a Fire Elemental into a lake might be an effective way of dispersing it.

For most other fire creatures (magmin, thoqqua, etc.) such a tactic would only be effective if it drowned the creature using normal drowning rules.

 

[HeavyG]

For most other fire creatures (magmin, thoqqua, etc.) such a tactic would only be effective if it drowned the creature using normal drowning rules.

Elementals of all types don't need to eat, breathe or sleep. It's in the description of the elemental type. Thus, no drowning.

It's fortunate, because oxygen is rare in the elemental planes. Except the plane of Air, of course.

This makes me wonder how outsiders originating from those planes breathe, though, since technically, outsiders do need to breathe.

 

[Teslacoil1138]

It's fortunate, because oxygen is rare in the elemental planes. Except the plane of Air, of course.

How would stuff on the plane of fire burn without oxygen? Or is it just magically burning all the time?

Also, isn't there an "atmosphere" to the plane of earth?

 

[Deset Gled]

How would stuff on the plane of fire burn without oxygen? Or is it just magically burning all the time?

I would assume things are just magically burning all the time. After all, what would there be on the plane of fire to create oxygen? Does the oxygen just magically appear?

In gameplay, I'd just go with whatever the simplest solution at the time is. It'll save you a big headache to just say "It's magic!" and wave your hands around instead of trying to work out how chemistry of a magic plane works.

 

[Sejs]

How would stuff on the plane of fire burn without oxygen? Or is it just magically burning all the time?

Oxy-what? What-gen? What're you on about? Fire burns because that's what fire does! Just like wind blows and water is wet. What, didn't your parents teach you about the 4 elements? I swear, young people these days... you know it's a lack of basic education like this that's driving this kingdom into the ground.


As for atmosphere in the Plane of Earth - only in places where they are pockets of other elemental matter, namely Air. Earth creatures don't need to breathe like we do, and that place is made for them, not us.

 

[DonaldRumsfeldsTofu]

"Oxy-what? What-gen? What're you on about? Fire burns because that's what fire does! Just like wind blows and water is wet. What, didn't your parents teach you about the 4 elements? I swear, young people these days... you know it's a lack of basic education like this that's driving this kingdom into the ground."

Haha. Agreed. My friend was trying to explain negative and positive energy using modern pseudo-science, and it really ruined my suspension of disbelief. The energies and elements are just magical forces, or at least people think they are, and will be proven wrong a thousand years later. I don't mind science in D&D, but when you start to use it to explain magic, it gets confusing.

There was already a thread about this though. I can't search for it, but the two schools of thought were that immersion of a fire elemental is the equivalent of a human being immersed in lava, (Which, if I remember correctly, is 20d6s per round) or that it would have no effect because fire elementals are magically burning fire, not oxygyen-fueld fire. Since the fire elemental in question was a monstrous PC, my suggestion was that for the sake of being climatic, his current incarnation would die and be metamorphisised as a steam elemental, although now I realize statistics for steam elementals don't actually exist.

 

[Darren]

PLANAR TRAITS
Elemental and Energy Traits
Fire-Dominant: Planes with this trait are composed of flames that continually burn without consuming their fuel source. Fire-dominant planes are extremely hostile to Material Plane creatures, and those without resistance or immunity to fire are soon immolated.
Unprotected wood, paper, cloth, and other flammable materials catch fire almost immediately, and those wearing unprotected flammable clothing catch on fire. In addition, individuals take 3d10 points of fire damage every round they are on a fire-dominant plane. Creatures of the water subtype are extremely uncomfortable on fire-dominant planes. Those that are made of water take double damage each round.

Water-Dominant: Planes with this trait are mostly liquid. Visitors who can’t breathe water or reach a pocket of air will likely drown. Creatures of the fire subtype are extremely uncomfortable on water-dominant planes. Those made of fire take 1d10 points of damage each round.

That's the closest thing I can find. I'd base my 'drowning' rules on it.

 

[Gaiden]

My post is entirely a rules extrapolation.

There was already a thread about this though. I can't search for it, but the two schools of thought were that immersion of a fire elemental is the equivalent of a human being immersed in lava, (Which, if I remember correctly, is 20d6s per round) or that it would have no effect because fire elementals are magically burning fire, not oxygyen-fueld fire. Since the fire elemental in question was a monstrous PC, my suggestion was that for the sake of being climatic, his current incarnation would die and be metamorphisised as a steam elemental, although now I realize statistics for steam elementals don't actually exist.

The lava rule seems to be the most coherent ruling I can find. Based on the rule:

A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it.

If a fire elemental cannot enter water at all, I think what's behind the impassability of the water is that the fire creature would be destroyed. I would think it would be completely nonsensical to treat the water like a force effect for example - after all, then the fire elemental could just walk on top of the water. Also, I don't think there is a precedent for treating the water like a repulsion effect. So what's left is that the body of water would destroy the fire elemental outright.

You might want to rule exactly that - fire creature enters body of nonflammable liquid and it is destroyed with no save. However, There is no real precendent for that other than the extrapolation of the impassable barrier. I would alternativly use the lava rules for a fire elemental in water looking at the impassability of water as a simplification. The designers probably never really considered the possibilities and just make a general catch all ban for convenience. They could have done the same for normal characters and lava but for that the normal characters would probably encounter lava far more often than a fire elemental would encounter a body of water. Also, the 20d6 damage makes a bit more sense to me. If it is the case that they are magically powered from the elemental plane of fire, and you have elementals of varying sizes, it would seem to me that the bigger ones will take slightly longer to extinguish than the smaller ones because there is a larger connection to the plane of fire.

A good support for this ruling would be the quench spell. Descriptively it is doing something similar and IIRC does a d6 dmg per level.