Druid Questions

[Lord Pendragon]

Really, I just browsed through the cleric list up to 4th for most of those. Until you've played one and listened to your friends say "You can't do x?" a hundred times you probably don't realize where they are.

I haven't played one because, as I noted in my reply to Saeviomagy, I'm allergic to the flavor of the class. But I've been in a game with one pretty much continually since 3.0 came out. I'd like to think that's given me plenty of opportunity to see the class in action.

I agree that the druid spell list isn't as versatile as some of the others. But it's incredibly effective.

This works for about four levels before it becomes incredibly impractical. Wildshaped you've got no AC and usually cap at three attacks (Since you don't get itinerative attacks.) Even then natural weapons have some fair sized problems with the new DR rules.

You never get more than three attacks with a medium BAB. But with the animal's insane ability scores, those attacks are going to hit more often and for more damage. You can, btw, get more than three attacks as a wildshaped druid as soon as you hit 9th-level (and large shapes). Say hello to the Dire Ape and his Claw,Claw,Bite and sometimes Rend routine. At high levels, say hello to the Dire Tiger and his Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake/Rake routine on each and every charge (thank you, Pounce.)

You can also get through DR by shifting into aforementioned Dire Ape form and wielding a scimitar of the appropriate material/alignment.

Not at 5th level. As much as people like to point to wildshape and say "Ooo!" I find the more I level the more I stay humaniod.

Before you can change into Large critters, Wildshape is a subpar melee combat ability, though still a fantastically versatile problem-solver. (Need to fly? Sure! Need to swim to the bottom of the lake? Got you covered! etc. etc.) Once you hit large shape, you're looking at Dire animals, rhinos, etc. Very nice.

Leather or Hide. The bard gets a +4 armor bonus at first level, the druid can get a +3 if he takes a movement hit. Dragon hide can boost this to +5. I do think Dragon hide is silly in it's price.

At the cost of a feat, Dragon hide can boost it to +8. Toss a Wilding Clasp on it, or get it the "Wild" armor enhancement, and suddenly when you wildshape your AC isn't so horrible anymore.

*shrug* AC's are great at first level. At higher levels most become paper tigers with pathetic armor classes and laughable hitpoints for something that wants to melee.

Perhaps so. In previous (up to level 12) campaign, the panther AC wasn't doing very well at that point. However, that was 3.0. Currently at 7th-level, the black bear AC is still doing very well in combat. Maybe that will change as we continue to level up, though I doubt it. Animals can be trained for war and gain heavy armor proficiency, allowing them to be fitted with full plate barding, that's +8 to AC even before you factor in any magic the druid might supply in the form of items or spells (our druid regularly uses Share Spells to cast Barkskin on herself and her companion.)

A pretty decent skill list as well. Though handle animal is almost a given if you want to keep your non-intelligent familiar in line.

Definitely. But even with Handle Animal maxed, that's 3 skill points per level, and a good skill list. It's merely another goodie for a class loaded with goodies.

In order....was stupid but is now iffy, isn't that bad if you only let it do what it says it does (vests, cloaks and neckware basically), was incredibly stupid and I haven't met a person who thought it was a good idea. I mean, Living Greyhawk banned Miasma, it's thatbad.

Nature's Favor is still another +3 to attack and damage for the druid, and his companion, that stacks with everything. How is that iffy? And the wilding clasp solves the big problem you had with wildshape: the weak AC most animals possess. Plus it allows the druid to maintain his boosted Wisdom score in animal form for spellcasting, and whatever cloak or vest he may have.

I don't know what Andy Collins actually thinks druids should or shouldn't be able to do but it must stop just short of world domination.

lol. I agree wholeheartedly.

At 15th level, I use one class ability with any regularity; Mask of a Thousand Faces. I only wildshaped after picking up Fast wildshape as a cheap boost to con when things go bad.

Why would you ever be anything other than a dire ape (or a legendary ape if your DM lets you get away with it)? Keep using all your equipment. Get a better strength, dex, and con, and a few natural attacks just in case you need them. Even better, once you get the ape, 4 skill points will solve any wildshape communication problems. 2 each for you and a partymate to learn sign language.

I might like venom immunity if I wasn't always Hero's Feasted.

Yes, the paladin's fear and disease immunity go the same way, it seems. I really think Heroes' Feast should be removed from the game.

The animal companion can hit something hard for a round then dies in the counter attack.

Interesting. Our druid usually keeps her companion back when we face a melee brute, which is perhaps one in five encounters. In the others we usually face a swarm of critters, none of which can simply drop her companion, so it's fairly safe for it to participate. I wonder if what you describe is a product of your game, or high-level play in general.

I spend a fair share of fights unable to summon since anything a druid has that packs a punch is large at least, AG is mostly out of the question.

Interesting. We do a fair bit of dungeon-crawling, but haven't run into the space issue much yet. We'll have to see how it works out at higher levels.

I'd get beat down without fighters and would be stopped dead by a host of monster the cleric or mage dismiss with a spell.

I think it's important to note that I am not claiming the druid is invincible, or as powerful as 4 other PCs combined. I do believe that the druid is the single most powerful class, pound for pound.

Tell me, what does the core druid do against a Pit Fiend?

I don't know. Sadly, I've not yet had a 3.x game get to a high enough level to take one on. Perhaps you'd care to point out the difficulties?

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I agree that the druid spell list isn't as versatile as some of the others. But it's incredibly effective.You never get more than three attacks with a medium BAB. But with the animal's insane ability scores, those attacks are going to hit more often and for more damage. You can, btw, get more than three attacks as a wildshaped druid as soon as you hit 9th-level (and large shapes). Say hello to the Dire Ape and his Claw,Claw,Bite and sometimes Rend routine. At high levels, say hello to the Dire Tiger and his Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake/Rake routine on each and every charge (thank you, Pounce.)

Spell list; again huge holes for a primary caster. We can table that issue for the moment though.

The three attacks comment is in relation to being a great melee guy. With less attacks, no two handed PA, and 17 different places to spend feats you aren't any where as well rounded as the fighter. You can beat people up, mostly the thugs the fighter simply hasn't bothered with yet...or the mage. (Mages taste yummy.)

Generally the more attacks the animal has the lower the base damage compared to other forms of similiar level. I may just have this fascination with DR but it's hurt me many a time.

You can also get through DR by shifting into aforementioned Dire Ape form and wielding a scimitar of the appropriate material/alignment.

Yea, they've (WotC) repeated said this is a bad idea and I agree. IIRC apes don't have very human like hands. The proportions are wrong and they lacks some of the fine motor control. Chimps are the closest but nobody seems interested in turning into them...

Before you can change into Large critters, Wildshape is a subpar melee combat ability, though still a fantastically versatile problem-solver. (Need to fly? Sure! Need to swim to the bottom of the lake? Got you covered! etc. etc.) Once you hit large shape, you're looking at Dire animals, rhinos, etc. Very nice.

No agrument.

At the cost of a feat, Dragon hide can boost it to +8. Toss a Wilding Clasp on it, or get it the "Wild" armor enhancement, and suddenly when you wildshape your AC isn't so horrible anymore.

The clasp is really only supposed to work on neckware I believe. So not on the armor. Wild is a +3 so it's at least 20k for that armor....plus a feat. The feat hurts a lot. Dragonhide is still remarkable good and way too cheap as well.

Perhaps so. In previous (up to level 12) campaign, the panther AC wasn't doing very well at that point. However, that was 3.0. Currently at 7th-level, the black bear AC is still doing very well in combat. Maybe that will change as we continue to level up, though I doubt it. Animals can be trained for war and gain heavy armor proficiency, allowing them to be fitted with full plate barding, that's +8 to AC even before you factor in any magic the druid might supply in the form of items or spells (our druid regularly uses Share Spells to cast Barkskin on herself and her companion.)

The only animal eligible to start 'trained for war' is the riding dog. I think the whole concept of 'trained for war' granting three feats is ridiculous. I don't much care since it's only the riding dog but I wouldn't allow that as a DM. If you dump three of the animal companions feats into armor they become slightly less vulnerable but still just big dumb brutes, which fair poorly in high level play.

Nature's Favor is still another +3 to attack and damage for the druid, and his companion, that stacks with everything. How is that iffy?

Iffy as a bit too good. It's less stupid now and is two levels higher than DF, but it lasts longer. I'd rather GMF plenty of animals than favor them since the GMF lasts longer.

And the wilding clasp solves the big problem you had with wildshape: the weak AC most animals possess. Plus it allows the druid to maintain his boosted Wisdom score in animal form for spellcasting, and whatever cloak or vest he may have.

I don't think the wildling clasp works on armor, it does the rest though. The neckslot I'd throw in just for sanity's sake. Variable casting attributes hurt my head.

Why would you ever be anything other than a dire ape (or a legendary ape if your DM lets you get away with it)? Keep using all your equipment. Get a better strength, dex, and con, and a few natural attacks just in case you need them. Even better, once you get the ape, 4 skill points will solve any wildshape communication problems. 2 each for you and a partymate to learn sign language.

I like talking, I like magic items and I haven't picked up dragonhide wild armor yet. Plus lizardfolk gives me nat armor and attacks.

Our druid usually keeps her companion back when we face a melee brute, which is perhaps one in five encounters. In the others we usually face a swarm of critters, none of which can simply drop her companion, so it's fairly safe for it to participate. I wonder if what you describe is a product of your game, or high-level play in general.

I do tend to fight smaller numbers of tough guys. Freak encounters with will saves are also bad...very bad.

Interesting. We do a fair bit of dungeon-crawling, but haven't run into the space issue much yet. We'll have to see how it works out at higher levels.

A good party can work around this some, it's still hard to find space for a huge elemental to pound something from.

I think it's important to note that I am not claiming the druid is invincible, or as powerful as 4 other PCs combined. I do believe that the druid is the single most powerful class, pound for pound.I don't know. Sadly, I've not yet had a 3.x game get to a high enough level to take one on.

They are definately the class I do not want to get into a fight with when they know the fight is coming. What a druid could do in his lair is horrible, a thing of nightmares. A big issue is that some of the problems a druid faces don't matter against PC's.....just bad.

Perhaps you'd care to point out the difficulties?

Fear aura, huge DR, huge SR, immunity to fire. Summons run, you can't hurt it, can't cast spells on it, can't burn it with SR ignoring spells.

I really don't know.

 

[youspoonybard]

Grapple it : )

Level 20 Druid should be able to do that rather easily...Animal Growthed Giant Constrictor Snake, even using just core. Heal if anything goes remotely wrong. Heck, without Improved Grapple (which my Druid took) or any other equipment/spells, that's a +3 advantage over the fiend...with Improved Grapple a harsh +7, if you include Nature's Avatar and Nature's Favor, it's over (and if your DM rules that modifiers to attack rolls don't apply to grapple checks, just Power Attack full to chunk through DR. Although I admit I haven't been keeping up with FAQs/Errata/Sage Advice recently, so I don't know what rulings have been made).

 

[Dark Dragon]

A Wilding Clasp works only on amulets and vestments, so a WSed druid won't benefit from a cloak of resistance, a ring of protection, a shield or armor, bracers,...

I'm DMing a level 20 group: a wizard/archmage, a wizard/mage of the order, a cleric/fighter, a paladin/cleric and a druid (played by me). The druid was house-ruled a bit: Although we're playing 3.5, the druid uses the WS version printed in Masters of the Wild. The WS - Animal Growth combo was a bit too cheesy (even for me, who plays the druid).
When it comes to combat with a large group of opponents, the wizards shine: Meteor Swarm, Delayed Blast Fireball (really ugly when energy substituted and/or shaped - arch mage), Horrid Wilting... When a single, strong opponent appears, paladin and cleric deal with him quickly. The druid (WSed as a dire bear) has often troubles to bypass SR, DR and/or armor, while his own armor and saves are lowered. If undead are battled, the druid is really powerful (Sunbeam, Sunburst), comparable to a cleric of Pelor/Lathander with access to the sun domain.
When using defensive tactics (buffing and protecting the group with spells), the druid is weaker as the cleric, but has some nice spells, though (barkskin, antilife shell, immunity to elements). In fact, most protective spells available to druids are also on the cleric's or wizard's spell list.

I'd say that the druid is a nice scout, able to hold his ground for a while, but far away from being too powerful, even if the various splat books are used (which is the case IMC).

 

[smetzger]

Couldn't disagree more. I think the 3.5 druid is perfect. Having seen several played, and done so myself, my experience has always been that the druid is a very useful character to have around, but in no way, shape, or form ever seems to dominate the game or the field, or overshadows the other PCs.

The RttToEE game I DMed had a Druid that seamed to outshine the other PCs at times. Shoot the group didn't even have an Arcane caster untill they got to level 12 and did fine with the Druids spells for offense.

The elementals on the Druids summoning list are way powerful against anyone who doesn't have a prot/alignment spell up. The air elemental and his whirlwind can wreak havoc and the earth elemental can pretty much ignore any environmental obstacles.

Druids are extremely flexible, once they get wildshape. They can scout as good or better than the Rogue and Ranger. While wildshaped the combined melee combination of the Druid and his Animal Companion can match that of a Fighter. And their offensive spells are decent (not quite as good as Wizards, but better than Cleric).

IME Druids are a bit to powerful in the lvl 7-14 range. At lower levels they are on par or a bit lower than other classes, and I can't speak with experience for higher levels.

When I DM again I am going to revoke the spontaneous Nature's Ally and auto usable equipment while wild shaped. I will add spontaneuous cast of speak with animal.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Grapple it : )

Level 20 Druid should be able to do that rather easily...Animal Growthed Giant Constrictor Snake, even using just core.

So what does the phrase "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" mean to you?

Heal if anything goes remotely wrong.

Heal has a somatic componant. Natural spell doesn't get rid of them and you can't cast spells with somatic while in a grapple.

Though the plan of grappling the hyper-intelligent guy who can teleport at will seems poorly thought out to me. That's just me though.

Heck, without Improved Grapple (which my Druid took) or any other equipment/spells, that's a +3 advantage over the fiend...with Improved Grapple a harsh +7, if you include Nature's Avatar and Nature's Favor, it's over (and if your DM rules that modifiers to attack rolls don't apply to grapple checks, just Power Attack full to chunk through DR. Although I admit I haven't been keeping up with FAQs/Errata/Sage Advice recently, so I don't know what rulings have been made).

Er...+12 size, +7 str, +15 bab +4 something? You've got some other buffs in there from baseline. Possibly GMF which is very questionable if it adds to grapple. I'd also have trouble spending two feats to get a +4 to grapple myself, but that's just me.

Natures x spells are really just silly, I've conceeded that the splats are pretty stupid.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

They can scout as good or better than the Rogue and Ranger. While wildshaped the combined melee combination of the Druid and his Animal Companion can match that of a Fighter. And their offensive spells are decent (not quite as good as Wizards, but better than Cleric).

Yep yep. This has been my experience as well.

IME Druids are a bit to powerful in the lvl 7-14 range. At lower levels they are on par or a bit lower than other classes, and I can't speak with experience for higher levels.

My thoughts exactly.

When I DM again I am going to revoke the spontaneous Nature's Ally and auto usable equipment while wild shaped. I will add spontaneuous cast of speak with animal.

What means this "auto usable equipment while wildshaped"...?! I was under the impression that equipment still merged into the wildshaped form, a hindrance which could only be circumvented with a wilding clasp. Am I mistaken in this? Does a druid get to keep using all his equipment while wildshaped...automatically?!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The three attacks comment is in relation to being a great melee guy. With less attacks, no two handed PA, and 17 different places to spend feats you aren't any where as well rounded as the fighter. You can beat people up, mostly the thugs the fighter simply hasn't bothered with yet...or the mage. (Mages taste yummy.)

My experience has been different so far. While the fighter cannot be matched when he hits with a full PA, most of the time he doesn't PA at all, or only slightly. A wildshaped druid can match him at such times, and surpass a S&B fighter. Especially if we consider the AC, which is after all a class feature of the druid.

Generally the more attacks the animal has the lower the base damage compared to other forms of similiar level. I may just have this fascination with DR but it's hurt me many a time.

So if there's DR you pick a critter that has fewer attacks but hits harder, if it doesn't have DR you pick a critter with more attacks. I can see that DR is a problem for a wildshaped, melee druid, but I don't think it's by any means crippling.

Yea, they've (WotC) repeated said this is a bad idea and I agree. IIRC apes don't have very human like hands. The proportions are wrong and they lacks some of the fine motor control. Chimps are the closest but nobody seems interested in turning into them...

WotC has repeatedly said it's a bad idea? But still legal? As far as I know, apes have opposable thumbs, which are the key to wielding tools/weapons. I'd love WotC to come out and say that an ape shape can't wear armor, rings, necklaces, cloaks, etc. and wield scimitars, but as far as I know it's both core and legal.

The clasp is really only supposed to work on neckware I believe. So not on the armor. Wild is a +3 so it's at least 20k for that armor....plus a feat. The feat hurts a lot. Dragonhide is still remarkable good and way too cheap as well.

I don't believe the text on the clasp mentioned only neckware, though I don't have that book to had to check. Has the item been updated to 3.5? I'm still thinking of the MotW version. And yeah, dragonhide is too cheap, but them's the rules of the game. We're discussing the druid as written, and as written he has access to wilding clasps and dragonhide armor. Or if he doesn't mind using up a spell slot every few days, Ironwood plate works just as well.

The only animal eligible to start 'trained for war' is the riding dog. I think the whole concept of 'trained for war' granting three feats is ridiculous. I don't much care since it's only the riding dog but I wouldn't allow that as a DM.

Is there a reference for this, or are you just explaining how you rule it? Afaik, the only reference at all is in the animal type description, which stats that an animal not trained for war isn't proficient with armor. Not Riding Dog. Animal. This would make all AC's eligible to be trained for war and gain the armor proficiencies. Take a look at the War Beast in MMII. AC's can wear armor. All it takes is a bit of training time.

If you dump three of the animal companions feats into armor they become slightly less vulnerable but still just big dumb brutes, which fair poorly in high level play.

Perhaps so. Thus far, though, the druid's been able to do the AC's thinking for it just fine. Mostly she rides it. But even if she didn't, it doesn't seem too difficult for the druid to direct it.

And if big, dumb brutes fare poorly in high-level play, our entire party is in trouble. Half the group has an Int less than 10.

Iffy as a bit too good. It's less stupid now and is two levels higher than DF, but it lasts longer. I'd rather GMF plenty of animals than favor them since the GMF lasts longer.

Sure, but that's just it. You can GMF plenty of animals and NF them in the first round of combat. They stack.

I do tend to fight smaller numbers of tough guys. Freak encounters with will saves are also bad...very bad.

Interestingly, in our last session we had an extremely tough encounter (the fighter wound up dying,) where in the first round or two, the black bear animal companion fell victim to some sort of Will Save spell and ran away. We'll have to see how things progress as we continue to level. It's definitely a weakness, but then, it's a weakness for the fighter too. It doesn't change the fact that the druid comes with his own meat shield as a class ability. That weakness can be compensated for in the same ways the fighter might do so. Iron Will, Saddlecloth of Resistance, stay next to the paladin, etc. etc.

Fear aura, huge DR, huge SR, immunity to fire. Summons run, you can't hurt it, can't cast spells on it, can't burn it with SR ignoring spells.

I really don't know.

Fear Aura shouldn't matter since your group is being Heroes' Feasted. DR, SR, and Fire Immunity are going to hurt (Fire Seeds being another heavy-hitting druid spell.) It seems to me that by that level, a druid might need to consider Energy Substitution, since most of his blast spells are fire-based, as well as possibly Spell Penetration.

What I'm wondering is, couldn't the Druid 20's Dire Tiger companion, Animal Growthed, Greater Magic Fanged, and Nature's Favored, grapple the Pit Fiend, while the druid stands back and blasts it?

 

[shilsen]

What means this "auto usable equipment while wildshaped"...?! I was under the impression that equipment still merged into the wildshaped form, a hindrance which could only be circumvented with a wilding clasp. Am I mistaken in this? Does a druid get to keep using all his equipment while wildshaped...automatically?!

IIRC, some of the "Rules of the Game" articles on the WotC site said that wildshaped druids should be able to use equipment which works on the animal's body. And then it provided a list which allowed almost all kinds of equipment to work, with rings on the toes, etc. That's not in keeping with the rules, IMO, not to mention seriously strengthening the druid (which - though I don't think it's an overpowerful class - is strong enough to not need it).

 

[isoChron]

I don't believe the text on the clasp mentioned only neckware, though I don't have that book to had to check. Has the item been updated to 3.5? I'm still thinking of the MotW version. And yeah, dragonhide is too cheap, but them's the rules of the game. We're discussing the druid as written, and as written he has access to wilding clasps and dragonhide armor. Or if he doesn't mind using up a spell slot every few days, Ironwood plate works just as well.

Wilding clasp works only with amulet, vest or similar item. (MotW)
As long as you have bonus spells due to an amulet of wisdom it would be a good idea not to lose them as soon as you wildshape. So put it on the wilding clasp. But most spells also need the focus. So put it down before wildshaping (move action), wildshape and put it around your neck again (at least move action). That is without readjusting the size (falcon or direbears differ in necksize) of the chain or whatever holds your focus). Try this in short timed D&D combat ...

For wildshape I recommend the only version that made sense since 3.0 started: MotW-Wildshape (not polymorph but a stand alone solution).

Iron Wood requires a Material Component: Wood shaped into the form of the intended ironwood object.
Means you have to carry around a bunch of wooden fullplates. Or does a material component no longer disappear after casting ? Maybe I'm wrong.

Natural Spell is very good, but it's not a substitution for silent spell or still spell or eschew materials. You still need to speak (only in animal language), handle the material components and wave your hands (claws, talons, ...) to cast a spell. And you must spend one of 7 or 8(human) feats a druid gets 'till level 20.

Druids are good but not overpowered ... a Shifter is another thing