Druid subclass: Circle of the Warden

[Redthistle]

So if we go with the Warden theme feature we could have, as an example (I would have to go back and have a better look at the effects):

Level 2: Choose your primal power source
Earth: You gain the form of Stone's Endurance and the form of X.
Wild: Something to do with the fey or forests?
Life: Something to do with healing?
Storm: You gain the form of Storm's Thunder

I think having 2 forms to choose from at least in the beginning would be best, unless at levels 6, 10, and 14 their primal form becomes more powerful

Level 6: Extra Attack (I think this should still be the 6th level feature)
Level 10: Enhanced forms
Level 14: Depending on how the forms are managed. If able to choose from multiple forms (the more interesting option) then Primal Convergence. Spend two uses to activate two forms at once. If only a single enhanced form then something to be determined at a later date.

The variant warden type associations, for example, Wild = fey/forests, sound good.

Going with two primal forms at 2nd level, what if "X" was a generic primal form common to all the warden sub-types, while the other one was specific to the theme?

Perhaps that common primal form could include granting the warden the UA_Starter_Spells cantrip primal savagery. That would be good for providing a binding characteristic flavor between the warden variants.

Level 6: Extra Attack. Absolute agreement on keeping this.

Question: Would this feature rule out keeping a level 6 enhanced form feature such as the tidal wave spell in Form of the Ocean's Rage?

Level 10: Enhanced Forms. I still like this idea.

Level 14: This level feature does require more thought.

I still like your original suggestion of Form of Earth's Beneficence, but I'm wondering now: is this too powerful for a PC to get as a general warden feature, rather than a primal form itself, at 2nd level when the Circle choice is made? What if it's only active while a/any primal form is active?

Instead of Earth's Beneficence at 14th level, a notion I have is that we could draw from the 4e Paragon Path levels for the flavor of enhancements at this level if we choose to go this route.

After the subclass features, there's still one thing to consider about the general druid features. Since the warden doesn't get Wild Shape, the 18th-level feature Beast Spells isn't applicable. What would make sense to replace it with?

 

[cbwjm]

The variant warden type associations, for example, Wild = fey/forests, sound good.

Going with two primal forms at 2nd level, what if "X" was a generic primal form common to all the warden sub-types, while the other one was specific to the theme?

Perhaps that common primal form could include granting the warden the UA_Starter_Spells cantrip primal savagery. That would be good for providing a binding characteristic flavor between the warden variants.

Level 6: Extra Attack. Absolute agreement on keeping this.

Question: Would this feature rule out keeping a level 6 enhanced form feature such as the tidal wave spell in Form of the Ocean's Rage?

Level 10: Enhanced Forms. I still like this idea.

Level 14: This level feature does require more thought.

I still like your original suggestion of Form of Earth's Beneficence, but I'm wondering now: is this too powerful for a PC to get as a general warden feature, rather than a primal form itself, at 2nd level when the Circle choice is made? What if it's only active while a/any primal form is active?

Instead of Earth's Beneficence at 14th level, a notion I have is that we could draw from the 4e Paragon Path levels for the flavor of enhancements at this level if we choose to go this route.

After the subclass features, there's still one thing to consider about the general druid features. Since the warden doesn't get Wild Shape, the 18th-level feature Beast Spells isn't applicable. What would make sense to replace it with?

I like these ideas, having a form in common would be a good way to tie the different types together while having the unique forms to each path. I hadn't even thought of primal savagery, most of my thoughts on a damage spell was the warden using shillelagh but primal savagery certainly fits well. I would probably give the common form resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage as many of the forms in 4e granted some level of DR so resistance and primal savagery might work well as the basic warden form.

I think we could probably still keep the 6th level ability to cast tidal wave while in a spellcasting form.

I'm trying to remember what I meant by enhanced forms I think it would be something like:

Storm Warden
Level 2: Resistance to Thunder/Lightning. Deal additional thunder damage when using the attack action.
Level 10: Gain a flight speed equal to your walking speed while in your primal form.

This way, the Warden will essentially only have 2 forms throughout their career, the common tanky damage form and their specialised form which becomes more powerful as they level up. What do you think of this?

Currently the regeneration ability at 14th level is only active while in a primal form, however, it might be better as a specific primal form available to a warden instead of a general feature. For my basic warden V1.1 I've moved it to a primal form and given them Primal Convergence at level 14 which lets the warden spend two uses to activate two forms at once. I should probably post this revision as well. Primal Convergence only really works if forms don't really get more powerful as they level since if they do then Primal Convergence could become quite overpowered.

For our specialised warden, I'm not sure if Primal Convergence would be a good ability to have since they should have more limited numbers of forms to choose from.

I hadn't considered this, I think we can include an extra ability at 18th level which replaces beast spells, at the very least, perhaps we could grant them 'Primal Focus' which allows the warden to ignore the need for material components. At 18th level though, that is a fairly minor ability to be gaining. Will have to think more on this.

I should also note that I had completely misremembered the druid's wildshape ability regarding the number of uses. They only get 2/short rest so I have edited this in the opening post. The main differences are that wildshape uses an action, primal form uses a bonus action in a fashion similar to a bladesinger.

 

[cbwjm]

I've just been having another look through the warden class in 4e and have been looking at the 4 different types as well as what could perhaps be the natural progression into paragon paths for ideas over and above the previous work on which forms to create for each warden path.

Earthstrength. Tough, draws on the land and the strength of the earth. Has a related at-will* that grants the warden temporary hit points. Horned Guardian or Earth Shaker paths would be good progressions.
Wildblood. Animalistic, predatory. Has a related at-will that pulls the target towards them (This is similar to the thorn whip cantrip but uses a weapon). Best progression would be into the Bloodwrath guardian.
Lifespirit. Healing, protection, nature. Has a related at-will that grants others temp. hit points. The best progression would be into the path of the emerald guardian which provides more temp. hit points and healing although the Verdant Lord paragon path would also fit well.
Stormheart. Draws on the storm. Has a related at-will that deals lightning damage and thunder damage to another target in range (similar to greenflame blade). Although this showed up in primal power, I would say it would progress into the storm sentinel from the PHB2.

*Although able to be taken by any warden, these at-wills were suggested for the builds in the books.

From this, I think I will use these as ideas for the following:
Taking the ideas of the at-wills to create some druid cantrips.
Look at each Guardian Might to create some basic forms.
Look at these paragon paths and decide on some enhanced and basic forms.

 

[cbwjm]

Just thought I'd throw up this greenflame blade variation based on a 4e at-will.

Tempest Assault
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it is hit by a thunderous assault. The second creature takes thunder damage equal to your spellcasting modifier.
This spell’s damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 lightning damage to the target, and the thunder damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.

 

[cbwjm]

Revising the warden a bit, in particular the primal forms. It follows the same path as the warden subclass in my first post, gaining extra attack at level 6. The level 14 ability needs to be reworked.

Primal Form
At 2nd level, in place of wildshape, you can assume a form of primal power using your bonus action to enhance your combat abilities for 1 minute. You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest. The forms ends if you are knocked unconscious.

While you are in your primal form, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.

You choose a path to focus your primal might: Earthstrength, Wildblood, Lifespirit, or Stormheart. Each of them enhance your primal form with different abilities.

The other forms are still being worked on. Here is an example.

Form of the Primal Beast
Your body becomes a hunched thing of fur and shadow, an echo of the archetypical predator, the Primal Beast.
Level 2: While in this form your reach increases by 5 feet. You increase your base walking speed by 10 feet.
Level 6: When a hostile creature within reach makes an attack against you or an ally, you may use your reaction to make an attack against the hostile creature.
Level 10: When you hit with a melee attack, you deal additional damage equal to your wisdom modifier.

The form of the Primal Beast was taken from the Warden paragon path in 4e. I took ideas from the level 20 daily power as well as the abilities gained at levels 11 and 16.

 

[Redthistle]

I like these ideas, having a form in common would be a good way to tie the different types together while having the unique forms to each path. I hadn't even thought of primal savagery, most of my thoughts on a damage spell was the warden using shillelagh but primal savagery certainly fits well. I would probably give the common form resistance to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage as many of the forms in 4e granted some level of DR so resistance and primal savagery might work well as the basic warden form.

I think we could probably still keep the 6th level ability to cast tidal wave while in a spellcasting form.

I'm trying to remember what I meant by enhanced forms I think it would be something like:

Storm Warden
Level 2: Resistance to Thunder/Lightning. Deal additional thunder damage when using the attack action.
Level 10: Gain a flight speed equal to your walking speed while in your primal form.

This way, the Warden will essentially only have 2 forms throughout their career, the common tanky damage form and their specialised form which becomes more powerful as they level up. What do you think of this?

Yes to this.

Limiting the Warden to just the two forms, one generic and one specialized as you've delineated here, works well and gives us a solid structure to build on.

Currently the regeneration ability at 14th level is only active while in a primal form, however, it might be better as a specific primal form available to a warden instead of a general feature. For my basic warden V1.1 I've moved it to a primal form and given them Primal Convergence at level 14 which lets the warden spend two uses to activate two forms at once. I should probably post this revision as well. Primal Convergence only really works if forms don't really get more powerful as they level since if they do then Primal Convergence could become quite overpowered.

For our specialized warden, I'm not sure if Primal Convergence would be a good ability to have since they should have more limited numbers of forms to choose from.

Agreed. Let's strike the idea of being able to combine the features of two different forms at the same time. Having the level-specific enhancements for each primal form is more balanced and flavorful, and avoids building in unwanted complexities in play.

I hadn't considered this, I think we can include an extra ability at 18th level which replaces beast spells, at the very least, perhaps we could grant them 'Primal Focus' which allows the warden to ignore the need for material components. At 18th level though, that is a fairly minor ability to be gaining. Will have to think more on this.

"Primal Focus." Oh, boy! I've been unable to come up with an idea for replacing the Beast Spells feature, but this satisfies the parameters of utility and not being over-powered. I salute your little grey cells, my friend!

I should also note that I had completely misremembered the druid's wildshape ability regarding the number of uses. They only get 2/short rest so I have edited this in the opening post. The main differences are that wildshape uses an action, primal form uses a bonus action in a fashion similar to a bladesinger.

The reason I'd proposed increasing the uses of Primal Forms in an earlier comment is because of one of the other descriptors in Wild Shape. The paragraph under the Beast Shapes tables states, "You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then return to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature."

You limited the duration of a primal form to 1 minute, sufficient to most combat encounters. THIS IS A GOOD THING. Why?

I view primal forces as being very powerful, with the potential to rend a mortal mind apart. Keeping it under control is not easy. Limiting its duration represents that in simple way.

If we think of the evolution of forces and life in the game's multiverse in terms of increasing complexity and diversity, it might be something like the individual elements (most basic) > primal (first intermixing of life and interacting elements) > material world (the teeming complex life forms as we commonly know them, scattered planets, stars, galaxies, and the spaces between them, etc.). Where there's the Elemental Plane and the Material Plane, there is no Primal Plane (I haven't looked to see how that fits into the game's cosmology, but bear with me here): primal forces develop in and from the flux between the chaos of the Elemental Plane and the more limiting structures of the Material Plane.

So, how do we balance a primal form that lasts for only a minute versus a beast shape that can last for hours?

Well, one thing is that we could give primal form the same duration as wild shape. For a primal form that can take on a tree-form, that even makes a certain amount of sense. Having only 2 uses is plenty when each use gives you many possible opportunities to use your beast shape abilities over the course of a game day.

The enhancements we're looking at for the primal forms, though, seem to me to be different enough that keeping the duration to a minute, but increasing the number of uses as the druid goes up in level, is a reasonable option.

More food for thought.

 

[cbwjm]

I'm running with 2 uses/short rest at the moment, I was considering the current wild shape limitation and comparing it with bladesong (2 uses/short rest. Activate with a bonus action instead of an action) however, it could also increase in use similar to a barbarian although the barbarian rage is restored on a long rest. I'm comparing these abilities so that I can keep the primal form number of uses in line with other abilities already in 5e.

I'm still working on the other forms. The lifespirit is going to be a good form for healing. The stormheart has some good dps, and earthstrength I am aiming at being quite tanky.

 

[cbwjm]

I'm not entirely happy with these forms but thought I would post them for people to perhaps comment on. In particular, I would like to change the level 6 Form of the Life-Giver ability so that it isn't a direct rip from the cleric's Life Domain. The Life-Giver's level 2 abilities also aren't that interesting for their first ability and I think I would prefer to move it to level 6 and change the level 2 ability so that it directly affects healing spells in some way. (Level 6 abilities also should ideally not be too powerful as that is also the level that the Warden gains Extra Attack).

Form of Storm’s Wrath
Thunder crashes around you as your skin becomes the dark blue-grey of thunderclouds and your eyes flash with lightning.
Level 2: When you hit with a melee attack, you deal an extra 1d6 lightning damage.
Level 6: While in the Form of Storm’s wrath, you are surrounded by winds that protect you from threats from afar. Ranged attacks against you are made with disadvantage.
Level 10: The fury of the storm surrounds you. Enemies who move next to you or start their turn adjacent to you, take lightning damage equal to 2 + ¼ of your druid level. (Ability taken from the Barbarian UA)

Form of the Earthshaker
Level 2: When you assume your primal form, you gain a burrow speed of 15 feet. As a reaction to being hit by an attack, you can add your Constitution modifier (minimum 1) to your AC. If your new AC is higher than the attack roll, it is treated as a miss.
Level 6: When you hit a creature with a melee attack, it must make a Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
Level 10: Earthly Rejuvenation. When you assume this form, you can spend hit dice to heal as if you had completed a short rest.

Form of the Life-Giver
You appear to increase in size as you take on the form of the legendary life-giver, granting vitality to your allies.
Level 2: You gain resistance to necrotic and poison damage.
Level 6: When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that heals, you heal extra hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.
Level 10: Any ally that starts their turn within 10 feet of you who has less than half their health gains heals hit points equal to your wisdom modifier (minimum 1).

Having thought on this some more, I think I would allow a druid who belongs to the Circle of the Warden gain access to all of these forms. It brings back some of the versatility that they lose due to losing access to wildshape by having 4 forms to choose from for different situations (DPS, different DPS, tanking, healing).