Magus Coeruleus
Explorer
Hey folks,
I've created this thread because in a thread on Alter Self Shallown asked about my experience playing a Druid/Wizard. Even though I started the other thread, I thought it would be more appropriate to put this here and link it.
ON MULTICLASSING
In my experience, multiclassing with two spellcasting classes is rough in that your spells lag in power. It pushes you toward certain strategies. For instance, you will almost certainly gravitate towards more of a support role. As party level goes up, your spell level doesn't keep pace, so that offensive spells tend to be less effective. On the other hand, many buffing and defensive spells remain useful (e.g. mage armor, shield, "animal series" of buffs), and of course you have a large number and wide variety of these lower-level spells. This means you are less useful for direct offense and better at supporting, enhancing, protecting, and healing yourself and others. In the case of a multiclass Druid this doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get to play a more direct role because with a combat-capable animal companion, you essentially get to play a second character for combat purposes. While you can have a fighting animal regardless of class, it's much easier as a Druid because you can share spells, making the companion more effective. Just as important, handling/pushing the animal is easier for a Druid because 1) Handle Animal is a class skill, you get a +4 bonus for training/handling your companion, and 3) handling is a free action (normally a move action) and pushing is a move action (normally a full-round action). Animal companions are superior to familiars in combat situations because they are tougher critters to begin with and because the consequences of their death is far less severe.
The other thing caster/caster multiclassing does is bias you toward spells that do not have many caster level-dependent variables. Spells that scale up significantly with level tend to start out weak, while others are stronger right off the bat but do not improve as much. You'll tend to prefer the latter type if you go up in caster level for each class slowly. For instance, mage armor, shield, and the animal series of buffs have level-dependent durations, but the magnitude of the bonuses is fixed, and immediately useful. Spells like Silent Image and Minor Image have durations based on concentration, so level doesn't really factor in as much. Shillelagh lasts 1 min/lvl, which means it will probably last for one fight regardless, and its bonuses do not vary with level. You get the picture. When you think about the most cost-effective scrolls and potions to make, it's the ones you can make with the lowest caster level and still have them be worthwhile. The same logic applies to spells you prepare if your caster level progresses slowly. The one feat you chose that might concern me is Spontaneous Summoning since the Summon spells take a whole round to cast and only last one round per level, which is rough if you're multiclassing. I might have waited until after becoming a Mystic Theurge. As it is, I have yet to spontaneously (or otherwise) cast a Summon Nature's Ally Spell because it just didn't seem worth using a whole round's action to get 1, 2, or 3 rounds of relatively weak assistance.
One of the biggest limitations to the spellcasting, other than raw power, is that you have so many spells you can cast but only so many relevant rounds in a combat, so you have to choose carefully which ones to deploy for the situation. If you start a fight casting shield, then mage armor, the an animal buff, etc., you might be well-protected, but you don't necessarily contribute much other than keeping the party from having to worry about your hide! At the same time, there are a few synergies worth noting if you have the time and really want to max out. One is stackable bonuses. Consider if you want to max out your AC. As a Druid/Wizard you can use mage armor, shield, cat's grace, protection from <foe's alignment>, and barkskin, all of which stack (armor, shield, Dex, deflection, and natural armor bonuses, respectively). A Drd3/Wiz1 can potentially go from shirtless to AC 10 + 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 = AC 24. If you want to be a specialized wizard, you can choose prohibited schools that contain spells that tend to be redundant with your Druid spells anyway. You might decide to forgo the Conjuration school since you already have access to things like Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Summon Nature's Ally, Summon Swarm, and Entangle (which is similar to Web) from the Druid list. Perhaps you might skip the seemingly indispensible Evocation school since Druid in 3.5 have some good damage and evocation spells now (e.g. Produce Flame, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind). There's no obvious choices, but it pays to consider what parts of your Wizard list to forgoe and just settle for the Druid offerings in that area. I chose to specialize in Illusion because notice there are NO illusion spells on the Druid list! I decided to prohibit Necromancy as an affront to life and nature, and Enchantment on the grounds that my character (Cha = 9) is not so good at influencing the behavior of non-animals. The role playing aspect is fun, in that the character is openly rude/paranoid/moralistic when it comes to arcane necromancy, whereas he's just relatively ignorant of enchantment magic.
ROLE IN THE GROUP
The game I'm playing in has some PC flux (each session is meant to be self-contained enough that players can jump in and out session to session without disrupting the campaign) so there's no one set role the my character has. Usually, however, there has been plenty of fighting and healing capability, with little or no utility spell functions other than what I can provide. No one is the type to pressure me, but I know that now that I have access to 2nd level Wizard spells there will be a demand for things like Knock, Levitate, Detect Thoughts, and Invisibility, that all parties like to have for a variety of situations. He is also the party sage on matters of arcana and nature, while the cleric (that player shows up pretty consistently) is the expert on the planes and religion. As I joked earlier, one of the first thoughts people probably have as to his role is the handler of the extremely effective fighting dog. A riding dog with the level 3-5 druid increases and the benefit of one or more druid and wizard spells (e.g. mage armor, shield, bull's strength, bear's endurance, magic fang, protection from evil) is a terror to behold. Here, I'll show you the stats, which reflects the bonuses for a 3rd level Druid, including +2 HD, +2 nat armor, +1 Str/Dex, +2 tricks, link, share spells, and evasion. These bonus HD also provide for an extra feat (for 3HD) and ability score point (for 4HD). I chose Iron Will and Con, respectively. I forget which skills I improved, but it's only 2 points for 2 HD given an Int of 2. Note with the tricks that you need to put a second trick into Attack for the animal to attack bizarre things like undead and aberrations. Similarly, the DM house-ruled that if I want the animal to follow me under the influence of strange spells like Spider Climb, Fly, etc., I need a second trick put into Heel. If, in the future, I want the animal to be willing to come to me from somewhere else using strange mobility, I can put another trick into Come at Druid level 6 (which is waaaay off).
Magaran, War Dog Animal Companion
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8 + 12 (38 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), T13, FF16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, link, shared spells, evasion
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +10, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +5, Survival +1 (+5 following tracks with scent)
Feats: Alertness, Track, Iron Will
Tricks: Attack*, Come, Defend, Down, Heel*, Trip (+1 check modifier)
FUTURE PLANS
I don't think the DM will allow the Mystic Theurge prestige class. Instead, in this campaign there are special "Avatar" prestige classes that you can take at 9th level depending on the "hero cult" to which you belong. For my class and cult, that would be one that is similar to Mystic Theurge except instead of getting full simultaneous spell progression, you go up in one at one level, in the other at the next level, in both at the next level, repeat. So the result is a 2/3 progression for each class. In exchange, you get the Wild Shape progression (with certain Sylvan creature options replacing the ability to turn into Elementals). I have grown to really like having the dog companion and sea eagle familiar companions, and will ask him if there is a way to instead skip the Wild Shape stuff and continue improving my critters.
Anyway, thanks for asking about this stuff. Let me know if you want any other specs on the character, and please share the love regarding your own PC!
I've created this thread because in a thread on Alter Self Shallown asked about my experience playing a Druid/Wizard. Even though I started the other thread, I thought it would be more appropriate to put this here and link it.
ON MULTICLASSING
In my experience, multiclassing with two spellcasting classes is rough in that your spells lag in power. It pushes you toward certain strategies. For instance, you will almost certainly gravitate towards more of a support role. As party level goes up, your spell level doesn't keep pace, so that offensive spells tend to be less effective. On the other hand, many buffing and defensive spells remain useful (e.g. mage armor, shield, "animal series" of buffs), and of course you have a large number and wide variety of these lower-level spells. This means you are less useful for direct offense and better at supporting, enhancing, protecting, and healing yourself and others. In the case of a multiclass Druid this doesn't necessarily mean that you don't get to play a more direct role because with a combat-capable animal companion, you essentially get to play a second character for combat purposes. While you can have a fighting animal regardless of class, it's much easier as a Druid because you can share spells, making the companion more effective. Just as important, handling/pushing the animal is easier for a Druid because 1) Handle Animal is a class skill, you get a +4 bonus for training/handling your companion, and 3) handling is a free action (normally a move action) and pushing is a move action (normally a full-round action). Animal companions are superior to familiars in combat situations because they are tougher critters to begin with and because the consequences of their death is far less severe.
The other thing caster/caster multiclassing does is bias you toward spells that do not have many caster level-dependent variables. Spells that scale up significantly with level tend to start out weak, while others are stronger right off the bat but do not improve as much. You'll tend to prefer the latter type if you go up in caster level for each class slowly. For instance, mage armor, shield, and the animal series of buffs have level-dependent durations, but the magnitude of the bonuses is fixed, and immediately useful. Spells like Silent Image and Minor Image have durations based on concentration, so level doesn't really factor in as much. Shillelagh lasts 1 min/lvl, which means it will probably last for one fight regardless, and its bonuses do not vary with level. You get the picture. When you think about the most cost-effective scrolls and potions to make, it's the ones you can make with the lowest caster level and still have them be worthwhile. The same logic applies to spells you prepare if your caster level progresses slowly. The one feat you chose that might concern me is Spontaneous Summoning since the Summon spells take a whole round to cast and only last one round per level, which is rough if you're multiclassing. I might have waited until after becoming a Mystic Theurge. As it is, I have yet to spontaneously (or otherwise) cast a Summon Nature's Ally Spell because it just didn't seem worth using a whole round's action to get 1, 2, or 3 rounds of relatively weak assistance.
One of the biggest limitations to the spellcasting, other than raw power, is that you have so many spells you can cast but only so many relevant rounds in a combat, so you have to choose carefully which ones to deploy for the situation. If you start a fight casting shield, then mage armor, the an animal buff, etc., you might be well-protected, but you don't necessarily contribute much other than keeping the party from having to worry about your hide! At the same time, there are a few synergies worth noting if you have the time and really want to max out. One is stackable bonuses. Consider if you want to max out your AC. As a Druid/Wizard you can use mage armor, shield, cat's grace, protection from <foe's alignment>, and barkskin, all of which stack (armor, shield, Dex, deflection, and natural armor bonuses, respectively). A Drd3/Wiz1 can potentially go from shirtless to AC 10 + 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 = AC 24. If you want to be a specialized wizard, you can choose prohibited schools that contain spells that tend to be redundant with your Druid spells anyway. You might decide to forgo the Conjuration school since you already have access to things like Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Summon Nature's Ally, Summon Swarm, and Entangle (which is similar to Web) from the Druid list. Perhaps you might skip the seemingly indispensible Evocation school since Druid in 3.5 have some good damage and evocation spells now (e.g. Produce Flame, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind). There's no obvious choices, but it pays to consider what parts of your Wizard list to forgoe and just settle for the Druid offerings in that area. I chose to specialize in Illusion because notice there are NO illusion spells on the Druid list! I decided to prohibit Necromancy as an affront to life and nature, and Enchantment on the grounds that my character (Cha = 9) is not so good at influencing the behavior of non-animals. The role playing aspect is fun, in that the character is openly rude/paranoid/moralistic when it comes to arcane necromancy, whereas he's just relatively ignorant of enchantment magic.
ROLE IN THE GROUP
The game I'm playing in has some PC flux (each session is meant to be self-contained enough that players can jump in and out session to session without disrupting the campaign) so there's no one set role the my character has. Usually, however, there has been plenty of fighting and healing capability, with little or no utility spell functions other than what I can provide. No one is the type to pressure me, but I know that now that I have access to 2nd level Wizard spells there will be a demand for things like Knock, Levitate, Detect Thoughts, and Invisibility, that all parties like to have for a variety of situations. He is also the party sage on matters of arcana and nature, while the cleric (that player shows up pretty consistently) is the expert on the planes and religion. As I joked earlier, one of the first thoughts people probably have as to his role is the handler of the extremely effective fighting dog. A riding dog with the level 3-5 druid increases and the benefit of one or more druid and wizard spells (e.g. mage armor, shield, bull's strength, bear's endurance, magic fang, protection from evil) is a terror to behold. Here, I'll show you the stats, which reflects the bonuses for a 3rd level Druid, including +2 HD, +2 nat armor, +1 Str/Dex, +2 tricks, link, share spells, and evasion. These bonus HD also provide for an extra feat (for 3HD) and ability score point (for 4HD). I chose Iron Will and Con, respectively. I forget which skills I improved, but it's only 2 points for 2 HD given an Int of 2. Note with the tricks that you need to put a second trick into Attack for the animal to attack bizarre things like undead and aberrations. Similarly, the DM house-ruled that if I want the animal to follow me under the influence of strange spells like Spider Climb, Fly, etc., I need a second trick put into Heel. If, in the future, I want the animal to be willing to come to me from somewhere else using strange mobility, I can put another trick into Come at Druid level 6 (which is waaaay off).
Magaran, War Dog Animal Companion
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8 + 12 (38 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), T13, FF16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, link, shared spells, evasion
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +10, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +5, Survival +1 (+5 following tracks with scent)
Feats: Alertness, Track, Iron Will
Tricks: Attack*, Come, Defend, Down, Heel*, Trip (+1 check modifier)
FUTURE PLANS
I don't think the DM will allow the Mystic Theurge prestige class. Instead, in this campaign there are special "Avatar" prestige classes that you can take at 9th level depending on the "hero cult" to which you belong. For my class and cult, that would be one that is similar to Mystic Theurge except instead of getting full simultaneous spell progression, you go up in one at one level, in the other at the next level, in both at the next level, repeat. So the result is a 2/3 progression for each class. In exchange, you get the Wild Shape progression (with certain Sylvan creature options replacing the ability to turn into Elementals). I have grown to really like having the dog companion and sea eagle familiar companions, and will ask him if there is a way to instead skip the Wild Shape stuff and continue improving my critters.
Anyway, thanks for asking about this stuff. Let me know if you want any other specs on the character, and please share the love regarding your own PC!
Last edited: