Druids suck? vs Shape Change and Polymorph

[Dimwhit]

Ok, yes I wasn't arguing that druids are slightly better fighters than wizards, I was comparing their wild shape ability to the spells that allow you to do the same. If you are able to get as a Druid the Shape Change spell at 17th lvel what is the point of getting the ability to change into a huge elemental of 17 HD when I could do Gargantuan of 34 HD with shape change?

Paul

First, you can't Shapechange into something with more HD than you have, to a max of 25HD. Druids also get the Elementals EX, SU, and SP abilities, as well as their feats. I don't think Shapechange offers those. And, as mentioned, you get to work off a higher BAB, better base saves, and more HP from the Druid than with the Wizard, so it's easier to be a front line fighter.

 

[Jdvn1]

Ok, yes I wasn't arguing that druids are slightly better fighters than wizards, I was comparing their wild shape ability to the spells that allow you to do the same. If you are able to get as a Druid the Shape Change spell at 17th lvel what is the point of getting the ability to change into a huge elemental of 17 HD when I could do Gargantuan of 34 HD with shape change?

Paul

Well, you originally said, "I was wondering -- WHAT THE HECK IS THE POINT OF PLAYING A DRUID... if you can duplicate his powers with polymorph and the shape change spell, which I believe is far superior to the druids wild shape ability."

The point of playing a Druid rather than a Wizard is that they have lots of cool abilities and benefits that you can't get from a Wizard.

Now, if you want to compare Wildshape to Shapechange, a 9th level spell with beat out a 5th level class ability almost every time. That's an unfair comparison. You might have to ask something much more specific like, "For someone interested in changing shapes or alternate forms, which is better-Wildshape or Shapechange?" That might get you more of a variety of answers.

 

[Dimwhit]

Not to mention that Shapechange can be dispelled, whereas Wild Shape cannot. Wild Shape can also be a source of healing, since you can heal some HP ever time you shape (several times per day), whereas Shapechange only offeres it the one time. I think.

 

[Jdvn1]

And, as mentioned, you get to work off a higher BAB, better base saves, and more HP from the Druid than with the Wizard, so it's easier to be a front line fighter.

Just to add: Which is, arguably, the point of the spell and the ability.

 

[Paul9000]

Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability.

Paul

 

[Dimwhit]

Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability.

Paul

I don't know about the PHB, but here's the Shapechange text from the SRD:

Shapechange

Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

Focus: A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)

As for Polymorph vs Wild Shape, the differences have been noted. They're not huge, but you get it multiple times per day, it lasts 1hr/level, it can't be dispelled...there are others.

 

[lukelightning]

Don't forget that druids have access to the shapechange spell too.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Shape change allows you to go as high as you want in hd up to 2x your cuurent level.. I believe the text in the PHB actually mentions 50HD as an example and it does give you ALL of the abilities of the creature SU and Spell like included. As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level. And it is true that it can't be dispelled but an anti magic field should negate the wild shape ability.

Paul

You missed the errata: Second sentence of spell description is in error. Change “more than twice your caster level in Hit Dice” to “more than your caster level in Hit Dice.” Also, change “50” to “25”.

 

[Paul9000]

Yes, I did miss that piece of errata apparently and yes it can't be dispelled but what about an Anti Magic Field? Even so, you could use the shapechange ability to far better affect than your wild shape elemental ability since you could change elemental types every round and are not limited to huge.

Paul

 

[Paul9000]

We are kind of off the beaten path here....

All I am saying is that one of the major powers of a druid is to get wild shape which many "feat" slots are devoted to at various levels and it all seems kind of pointless when once you reach 17th level you get to do all of that and more with a single spell. Not to mention wizards can just about keep up with you using polymorph and their shapechange spell. Then you throw in the pet whihc is negated really by the wizards familiar

ok so Toad is not quite = dire wolf, but you can get improved familiar too.

that leaves a druid with a slightly better attack bonus, 1 more good ST, and some healing spells.

As far as flavor goes I do love the druid I was just kinda bummed last night after reading all of the comparisons and finding out that my wild shape wasn't that special especially since we are playing gestalt classes and I am a Druid 12 Ranger 10 and MOMF 2. MOMF seems kind of pointless when I will get the shapechange spell eventually.

Paul