Druids suck? vs Shape Change and Polymorph

[Dimwhit]

It really comes down to the player and how he/she plays the characters. I've played a high-level Wizard (who had Shapechange) and a high-level Druid. I loved them both. I prefer Wild Shape over Shapechange, but that's just me. I think high-level Wizards are much more effective when they just blow stuff up.

 

[Felix]

As for comparing Shape Change to a fifth level ability you are missing the polymorph spell which a wizard gets at 7th level.

And you are missing or ignoring all the posts wich already commented on the Wild Shape v Polymorph question. If this thread was begun in earnest, read all the replies before you repost.

 

[glass]

At 17th level, wild shape lasts 17 hours, which means you can keep it up all day. Shapechange lasts 170 minutes, which means you can't.

So of course shapechange is better, it costs you more. Wildshape costs you basically nothing. Shapechange costs you a 9th level spell slot and, perhaps more importantly, it costs you an action. At 17th level, a standard action is a huge price to pay!


glass.

 

[Paul9000]

honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.

Paul

 

[Deset Gled]

If the posts above don't persuade you, I highly recommend building a level 12 wizard/sorcerer focused on shape changing spells and replacing your Druid with it for a mission or two. I think you will find fairly quickly that althought the wizard gives you a lot of good spells, their ability to change shape and enter melee combat is very limited. Very limited indeed.

 

[glass]

honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.

But wildshape is even better in comparison with polymorph than it is in comparison with shapechange.

Polymorph doesn't get you supurnatural or spelllike abilities, and it last even less time than shapechange does (and massively less than wild shape).

EDIT: Oops, shapechange doesn't grant spelllike abilities either!


glass.

 

[Pinotage]

honestly, I did read them all ,we just seemed to have gotten stuck on comparing Shapechange at 17th level to wild shape at 5th level and that is not a good comparison. I was merely trying to state that Shapechange should be compared to the Druids elemental wild shape at higher levels and keep the polymorph ->wild shape comaprison for the lower levels.

Paul

Duration: Druid wins
Number of times per day: Druids wins
Utility: Wizard wins
Use of ability (grappling, etc): Druid wins

They're two entirely different beasts - I'm not sure why you're comparing them. It's like saying what's the point in playing a fighter when a wizard can shapechange into something that has a larger attack bonus than the fighter. All classes have a point. What exactly do you want to know, then maybe we can help a little better.

Pinotage

 

[Felix]

Low Levels: Polymorph v Wild Shape

WS does not take up a spell slot.
WS lasts 1hour/level.
WS has multiple uses per day.
WS cannot be dispelled.
WS is easier to perform in a grapple.
WS is better on the front lines because of a Druid's higher BAB and HP total.
WS is better because it scales as you gain levels.

Polymorph is better because it gives access to a wider variety of creatures.
Polymorph is better on the front lines because the creatures are more suited to combat.
Polymorph is better because you can cast it on someone else.
Polymorph is better because you can metamagic it.
Polymorph is better because once you have it, you have access to all of its powers, save the HD cap.


Higher Levels: Wild Shape v Shapechange

WS is better because you get 12 levels of value out of it before you gain access to Shapechange.

Shapechange is better because it's a friggin 9th level bloody spell, and it's being compared it to a 5th level ability. Might as well compare Greater Rage with Trap Sense +1.

 

[nittanytbone]

Wildshape has huge stealth potential -- turn into something that has a racial hide bonus and be equipped with Natural Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell, and you can destroy opponents before they even know who's fighting them by summoning hordes of hippogriffs and other nasty animal friends, throwing around some heat metals, and maybe an insect swarm or two. Of course you'll want to entangle them first so they can't run.

Then later in the day, turn into a bird with a fly speed of 80 and move across the county. Then you can wildshape again into something with a racial Spot bonus while you stand watch and finally end up using a second level spell to assume tree form for the evening while you sleep, only to unleash it all again the next day.

And that's at 8th level.

 

[beepeearr]

Don't forget that shapechange has a pricey material component in the form of a 1,500 gp jade circlet. That might prove to be kind of a pain to carry enough of those around to use it on a regular basis, and what happens when you run out in the middle of a dungeon.