Dual Shield Ranger build help

SteelDraco

First Post
EDIT: And some feats of interest:

Spiked Destroyer: Swift action armor spike attack when you bull rush someone. Nice with Brawler's close weapons bonuses.

Merciless Rush: Have to worship some CE deity and it basically just lets you move through the foe's square instead of moving him. Since you can move with him already, seems of limited use. But, you need it for...

Squash Flat: Trade 5 ft of bull rush movement for making the victim prone. Good trade!

Where are these feats from?
 

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Systole

First Post
[MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION]

I wanted to bump this because I'm thinking of making something similar for LPF. Before I got there, I have two questions ...

1. Shield spikes with the Bashing enchantment. It was my understanding that armor/shield spikes were treated as weapons and needed to be enchanted separately. Therefore, they wouldn't be subject to the bashing enchantment. In other words, do you need an unspiked shield for the bashing enchantment?

2. You went for the Guide archetype. Any reason not to throw Skirmisher on there? You trade a couple of 1st level spells (and the ability to use a wand of CLW) for 6/day of a couple of cool abilities -- Upending Strike and Rattling Strike are both neat abilities that stay relevant through 20th. Plus, you can dump Wisdom without feeling too bad, except for the whole thing where your Will save sucks.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
My understanding is you can enhance the shield as both a shield/armor and as a shield/weapon. If you get shield spikes, it isn't clearly stated, but I've always assumed the spikes (which are still part of the shield, not technically their own "item") recieve any of the weapon enhancements and it overrides shield stats to be a piercing weapon that you can still bash with. So, you could apply the keen enhancement to a spiked shield, for instance.
Bashing is strange, it's an AC enhancement that boosts weapon properties. Since the spikes are still part of the shield, and ANY shield can already be dual-enhanced, I see no reason why bashing would not stack with spikes, and the rules certainly say nothing to prevent it. RAW of course, you could not use the effective +1 from bashing, you would have to actually pay 2000 to give it a +1 weapon enhancement before advancing it further as a weapon. But it certainly is confusing.

Skirmisher...I write it and trapper off generally, because the abilities are so weak. And even w/ only CL 3 and like 2 1st level spells...spellcasting is useful. That said, Upending Strike would be pretty helpful. Rattling Strike is so inferior to numerous other abilities (Enforcer if doing nonlethal, Cornugon Smash, later on Dreadful Carnage) that I wouldn't bother with it... If the DM allowed demoralize from intimidate to stack with it (RAW it stacks with nothing, iirc), it'd become much more valuable.
Skirmisher might be useful, though. I still wouldn't dump wisdom...for one thing, Horizon Walker is one of the nice options to dive into after Ranger. And your tricks are still wis-based for times per day. Maybe keep wis at a 12, but not a true dump...

EDIT: Surprise Shift is terribad compared to 3E items (which do it for low cost), but in PF-only extra 5 ft steps is worth a feat. Skill Sage might be useful, but can't see Ranger using any of the really powerful skills with it, other than Perception.
 
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Systole

First Post
Okay, here's everything I can find on shields and spiked shields.

[sblock=Item descriptions]
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.


Spiked Shield, Heavy or Light

Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon.


Shield Spikes
Benefit: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. [/sblock]

[sblock=Feat/Enchantment]
Shield Master (Combat)

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.


Bashing

Description A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash.
Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.[/sblock]

I'm a little troubled by the "Spiked Shield" entry, given that it claims 'off-hand only.' But at the same time it says a spiked shield is a bludgeoning weapon. I'm tempted to just call it wrong and move on.

Rereading carefully, I'm thinking your original interpretation is correct. "A spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right," BUT "A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger." So a spiked shield is still a shield, and it does not need to qualify as a weapon in order for Bashing to affect it.



By the way, meet Spike.

I don't know if I'm going to dual-shield, but she's definitely going to be shield-centric. I'll decide in a few levels. I also figured that Wis shouldn't be a full-on dumpstat.

EDIT: I know you're "anything but humans," but my problem is that my characters keep ending up as elves.
 
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Squire James

First Post
As the rules are worded, the "two spiked shield build" might work. As a DM, I'd not let the Bashing enchantment stack with the spikes, mostly because I'm a little leery of "size bonuses" stacking in general. The rest of it is no problem, and would be a pretty good build, and the spikes would still be good if you needed a piercing weapon for some reason (yeah, Mr. Rakshasa, I'm looking at you).
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Eh, the two size increases together allow you, at some cost in enhancement bonus, to get a 2d6 one handed weapon with a 20/x2 crit and no other special properties like trip or disarm. It's not that bad.

Systole: You should fix the link.

I don't know where it was said off-hand, but I know ofr certain that the designers explicitly stated that you do not need to use a shield as an off-hand weapon, and the rules were merely written assuming that as the norm. I could try to find it, perhaps, but the paizo boards...ugh....

Your character's got an interesting look. Reading about her, made me wonder when she goes to the bathroom. She is still a human. :) Any reason for the parade armor?

Archetypes: Not sure where you plan to go with her, but a paizo forum member recently pointed out to me that with the Instant Enemy spel (use a wand)l, a Horizon Walker can designate a creature as his favored enemy for all purposes. Including native terrain. Which, if you plan ahead at all, will match the terrain you have dominance in.. Just an idea, but you would then obviously not want either archetype (guide removes the FE you need to use the combo; skirmisher removes the ability to use the wand).

Feats seem fine. Are you satisfied with the traits? PF has some very nice ones. And yeah, I prefer not being human. Certainly ranger is a bit MAD, so having two stats boosted helps, unfortunately it's impossible to boost str and dex (how I miss you, 3E Wood Elf).
 

Systole

First Post
Ugh, Enworld loves to cut off that final parenthesis. I don't know why.

I also thought about the bathroom issue, but then I filed it under MST3K Mantra. I had two reasons for choosing parade armor: (1) I wanted a spiky-armored kind of look with a face concealing helmet, and (2) I hate 20' speed. A lot. So out of the light armors, parade armor most matched the look I had in my mind without cutting speed. In other words: RP decision. Same deal with the traits.

Eventually, mithril and stuff, of course.

At the moment, I'm actually leaning shield/kukri, so I'm not sure if she'll finish with the Brawler archetype or no. I'm very certain she won't go HW, because my differently sane elf barbarian is going to take that for rage-hopping.
 

Grimgrin

First Post
Have you seen this feat?

Two Shield Fighting

As to race:

I agree the dwarf seem to have the mindset for using two heavy shields in combat.

In "Plot & Poison" by Green Ronin. Dual Shield fighting style called "Mithral Carapace" is an option available to drow.

Human Gladiators might also employ these weapons since it is unique and unusual fighting style.

Historic Authenticity

I only know of examples of paired "bladed bucklers" (like the Lantern Shield and madu).

Some armies worked in teams with a shield bearer and a pike man or crossbowman.

Some soldiers used a shield bash as a primary attack followed by a secondary strike from a spear or short sword (gladius)
 
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milo

First Post
Also I was wondering about even picking up TWF, if you get Shield Master as a Ranger feat you don't need to meet the pre reqs. Shield master lets you fight with two shields at no penalty. The only reason I can see picking up TWF is to get double slice. From my personal experience ITWF and GTWF just lead to more misses in a round not normally more hits(six attacks with 2 hits isn't any better than 4 attacks with 2 hits).

EDIT:
Two shield fighting feat from above also needs TWF.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Hadn't seen two shield fighting before. That's a pretty sweet 3rd party feat, if you can get it allowed.

And that's a good point, milo. If you don't mind not using two shields till 6th level, you could actually skip out on TWF to ease the initial feat burden. It is eventually useful as a pre-req for the other TWF feats and double slice, though, as you said. I think around the time you can get GTWF, ITWF has a fair chance of hitting. Maybe hold off on TWF and ITWF until about then.
 

Systole

First Post
RAW, Shield Focus stacks with Two Shield Fighting, since Shield Focus adds to the shield bonus of a shield, and Two Shield Fighting allows for both shield bonuses to be in effect.

You just gotta be a little careful, as Two Shield Fighting is a 3rd party feat. Not that Paizo itself hasn't put out some pretty retarded stuff, but you should be extra careful around non-official splats.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
that video

guy has sucky looking shields. I can picture waaaay cooler stuff.

First off, the 4th edition "Gauntlet Axe" from Dark Sun. Imagine your shields as being sort of like battle axes, protruding from your bracers/armguards. As a double-half-moon design, it would look a lot like a round-ish shield on each forearm, even to the extent of having a spike at the tip where the central shaft ends (pointing forward, from your wrists). It would look cool, AND be very axe-like. Since there is virtually no distinction between bludgeoning and slashing damage in pathfinder (AFAIK), why the heck not, just call your shields battle axes in each "hand" and call it a day. Even better, since you can't drop them (although if you let your hand go on your heavy shield to grab onto a rope, say, if you're about to fall off a cliff, not sure how that'd work).

No-penalty TWF, pretty cool idea actually.

I'd be very interested in way that one could combine the mundate "throwing shield" property, with a magical "returning" for when you need that ranged attack. (surprise! whack). Screams Capn America a little loudly, though.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Sounds cool. I definitely would be open to more kinds of shields if your DM / rules allow. Bladed shields (sharp on the edges and/or with strips of razor-like blades running down the front of it) would be awesome.

Not sure a throwing returning shield screaming Cap. is a bad thing, but plenty of other ways to describe it. It's a mobile suit (giant piloted robot, basically), but could just model your shield and how its ranged attack works after Deathscythe's. Two pincer-like blades, it magically shoots off your arm in a spinning motion straight into the enemy.

Gundam Wing Tribute Deathscythe - YouTube

(only like those first 4 sec. from that mark are relevant)

Pretty sure that still looks like piercing damage. And messy if used on something made of flesh... :)
 

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