D&D 5E Dual Wielder with Shield (and Shield Mastery)

[Kristivas]

So rule of cool, a fighter with all this, would do the d4+str mod as bonus action or shove, get his +2 to AC (maybe even a +3 from dual wielder feat), and get his proficiency bonus to attack. But intention has something to do with this ruling, if it was about gaming the system I am less inclined to rule this way as opposed to building a cool but effective character concept.

I like to optimize, but I don't like to take it so far that I'm Hulk Hogan to the rest of the group's Hacksaw Jim Duggan. I've just always kinda liked a shield-bashing, S&B tank character as a concept, but without a lot of feats from splatbooks, shields were just dreadful in 3.5 (never got into 4e). I want my fighter to use a sword or a battle axe, not another halberd (or the ridiculous spiked chain, which I will always and forever hate), which is one of the main reasons I started brainstorming on this.

I'll probably have him check out this thread and give me an opinion on it.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I've just always kinda liked a shield-bashing, S&B tank character as a concept, but without a lot of feats from splatbooks, ... which is one of the main reasons I started brainstorming on this.

If this is what you're looking for, I think trying to synergize dual wield with shield mastery is not your best bet. (Shield mastery doesn't synergies with Great Weapon master either; it's not a fault, and it doesn't help to force it).

Shield mastery is an awesome feat that already does what you say you want; it just happens not to be additive with dual wield. Sure, you could house rule it:

(maybe even a +3 from dual wielder feat)

But for this concept, many feats *do* work together with shield mastery -- e.g. sentinel and martial adept. Or you can just get +1 to hit and damage by taking a stat bump. That's my view.

 

[jadrax]

Kill Lizardmen, loot spiked shields, watch DM cry.

 

[I'm A Banana]

(I might add that if you're allowed to keep your shield AC bonus while using it as a weapon, your AC increases thanks to Dual Wielder. This is the sort of weird interaction I want to avoid. The game is built on the assumption that dual wielding, great weapon fighting, and sword-and-boarding are mutually exclusive. Screw with that assumption and all kinds of issues may crawl out of the woodwork.)

As it is, anyone who picks up the Dual Weilder feat + Tavern Brawler who picks up any random item has an AC bonus. I don't see much reason why "any random item" shouldn't include a shield. I really do not have a problem with someone who uses TWO FRICKIN' SHIELDS (dealing 1d4 damage, no less!) to have a higher AC because they have two of them and know how to use two at once.

FWIW, 4e had pretty solid shield support (though it was mostly 20 subtly different flavors of "shove something" + 20 subtly different flavors of "interrupt an attack to reduce damage" with a few action economy inhibition things like "squish something against a wall", "make them unable to use fancy powers," and the easy "daze it."), including a Paragon Path that directly encouraged using two shields, the Snapping Testudo. And the Guardian Fighter in 4e (likely 4e's iconic fighter) was pretty much a shield monkey with a 1H weapon.

5e doens't have the space to do all that, but Shield Mastery works pretty well, and if you want to use two shields and deal 1d4 damage by spending two feats...really not a problem IMC.

 

[Juriel]

See, this thread is the first time someone has managed to point to Tavern Brawler being possibly useful. If you're a shield-and-boarder, getting a proficiency-having 1d4 attack with your bonus action (the rare times when you aren't Shield Master knockdowning things) just might be interesting enough. Requires dual-wield fighting style, so this takes a while to start working (because you want something like Duelist first, so either you're a Champion Fighter or multiclass Paladin/Ranger/Fighter), but it's intriguing (even if just boosting your stats rather than picking up all these feats would be more useful).

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

But you're either dual wielding or sword-and-boarding. You can't do both simultaneously.

(I might add that if you're allowed to keep your shield AC bonus while using it as a weapon, your AC increases thanks to Dual Wielder. This is the sort of weird interaction I want to avoid. The game is built on the assumption that dual wielding, great weapon fighting, and sword-and-boarding are mutually exclusive. Screw with that assumption and all kinds of issues may crawl out of the woodwork.)

Good point about the interaction concerning dual wielding, great weapon fighting, and sword-n-boarding.

That said, I'd probably allow someone to shield bash with proficiency if they are proficient with the shield. I think requiring an additional feat, like Tavern Brawler, to apply proficiency when shield bashing is too high a cost. But, I definitely agree that "you're either dual wielding or sword-and-boarding. You can't do both simultaneously." So, no shield bonus to AC when shield bashing.

 

[Paraxis]

But, I definitely agree that "you're either dual wielding or sword-and-boarding. You can't do both simultaneously." So, no shield bonus to AC when shield bashing.

Following that thought process wouldn't you lose the shield bonus to AC when you use the bonus action to shove? But you don't, according to the feat, I just see it as a trade off between bonus action shove and bonus action d4 damage attack if one doesn't stop you from gaining the AC bonus neither should the other.

Also 5e is supposed to have very little bookkeeping and micro managing of thing, worrying about a bonus this round or not seems like going against the grain of the game. I mean there is not touch AC, flat footed AC, CMD, or what not.

 

[Wrathamon]

Nothing says you loose the AC bonus when using a shield as an improvised weapon. Only time you dont get the AC bonus is if you're not wielding it in one hand or if you are wielding a second one.

The general rule: Wielding a shield increases your AC by 2 and you can only benefit form only one shield at a time (so no +4 ac with dual wielding 2 shields). Used in one hand.

The exception rules: Improvised Weapons rule that let you use an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon as one and it deal 1d4 damage but you get no proficiency. AND: DMs option to allow proficiency if they feel it is similar to another weapon.

Two-Weapon Fighting ... EDIT: Both weapons have to be light. The weapon you start the attack with must be a light weapon and the bonus attack must also be a light weapon.

Two-Weapon Fighting Style ... you get your bonus damage

At this point with out Feats

EDIT
You cannot make a improvised weapon (shield) attack as a bonus attack because it is not a light weapon.

You can't attack with the shield and a light bonus attack, because the shield is not a light weapon.

With Feats ...

+1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. ... This one is corner case. Because it says melee weapon in each hand, a shield is not a melee weapon, unless the DM says it is similar to an actual weapon, I would say NO bonus AC by the rules (but I would allow it in my game as a hr)

You can two-weapon fight even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light. This is one lets you use a non-light weapon as your bonus attack. Without this feat by the way two-weapon fighting is worded you wouldn't normally be able normally do that.

Tavern Brawler you can get proficiency bonus and you don't need a nice DM to let you have it, you get it.

I dont know if getting that 1d4 Bonus damage is that great to be honest. I would rather take Duelist and always get the +2 damage when using a shield. Duelist says you can't have another weapon in your off-hand and a shield is not a weapon (unless you're using it as a improvised one).

Under Lizardfolk it doesnt say they loose they AC bonus when they attack with their Spiked Shield .. but Monsters don't follow PC rules, but that is the only place I have seen an attack with a shield.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Following that thought process wouldn't you lose the shield bonus to AC when you use the bonus action to shove? But you don't, according to the feat, I just see it as a trade off between bonus action shove and bonus action d4 damage attack if one doesn't stop you from gaining the AC bonus neither should the other.

Also 5e is supposed to have very little bookkeeping and micro managing of thing, worrying about a bonus this round or not seems like going against the grain of the game. I mean there is not touch AC, flat footed AC, CMD, or what not.

I agree that that solution is simpler and probably more in line with 5E's design.

Honestly, I don't think it'd break anything to allow the shield bonus to remain, even when shield bashing.

As a side note, I've been wondering about rules for heavy and tower shields in 5E, for a while, now. The only listed shield appears to be the same weight as a light shield from PF. So, wondering what the 5E stats for heavy and tower shields ought to be?

 

[Greensnakedrex]

The rule of cool trumps all (barring game warping effects). I once had a main villain of a campaign use two interlocking bladed punch shields as his weapons. I did not let the rules muddle a cool concept, resulting in an iconic bad guy who still stands vividly the imaginations of our whole gaming group. Don't sweat the small stuff. 2 feats and sacrificing d size to add to AC should keep things balanced.