Dungeon #110

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Since no one else has done so so far, here's the run-down on Dungeon issue #110, the May issue, which I just received today.

Editorial - Erik Mona gives us his rules for a good campaign, created from personal experience.

Prison Mail - The usual litany of letters, ranging from praise for great content to desires to see Polyhedron purged from the pages of the magazine. Of note are the editorial replies. The editors say that the new paradigm of several short adventures (as opposed to a few long ones) should begin by issue #114. Before that happens though, issue #112 will contain only a single adventure (didn't one of the editors say that would never again happen after issue #99?), the return to Castle Maure (expanded now with a new fourth level designed by Rob Kuntz) from WG5: Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure. Also, revised writer's guidelines (for writing adventures) should be appearing sometime after issue #114. There's also a mention that, after one letter complains about the plethora of half-dragons, that we won't be seeing many more of them over the next year.

Buzz on the Bridge - By John Simcoe. A D&D adventure for four 3rd level characters. Giant bees have made a nest on the only bridge leading to the trade route from this remote halfling village. It's up to the PCs to remove the bugs. This adventure also includes a map of the bee-infested bridge, which takes four pages to properly display. Also are twelve little counters of bees (these are part of a page, not separate, so you'll need to xerox the page to cut them out).

This short adventure seemed rather lighthearted in tone, which was an enjoyable change. The halfling NPCs have great personality, and are quite likeable (what PCs wouldn't smile when, coming into town, a group of exciteable halfling children present them with flowers and ask if they're going to kill the "big mean bugs"?). Of note also is the artwork for this adventure. Jeff Carlisle did spectacular work with two full-page pieces!

Last Stand at Outpost Three - By David Noonan. No listing is given for what level characters that this adventure is meant for, but looking over the various encounter levels (ranging from 2 to 7), it seems that this is meant for a party of four 4th level characters at the very least.

The adventure begins two days into the siege of the outpost. Elven marauders are attacking, and no one can figure out why. After repelling the first wave, and getting a chance for some healing and interrogating a prisoner, a large sandstorm falls over the outpost, and the PCs must take cover with the other defenders in warehouses. However, this is the subject of repelling a second wave of attackers - elven zombies. The final leg of the adventure has the PCs setting out from the outpost, and meeting hazards abroad.

This adventure is quite interesting in terms of the mechanical aspects that it offers (especially to people who want to play a Dark Sun campaign). At the end of the adventure is the Athasian Zombie template, since on Athas most undead retain their memories/intelligence/personality. Likewise, the adventure has a weather table for the Tablelands, and an encounter table for stony barrens environment (the encounters are Dark Sun specific monsters). Encounters have listings for the light level, audible sounds, detectable auras, and important rules to recall. It's worth noting that every NPC, even those without psionic class levels, has at least one psionic power and a handfull of psionic points. However, contrary to what was pointed out in Dragon #318's preview of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, they don't also have the Psionic subtype.

This adventure is much less open-and-shut than most adventures printed in the magazine. Rather, it's meant to be an introductory adventure that has no real end to it, being the springboard for a Dark Sun campaign. The backstory is given for exactly why the elves are attacking the outpost, but the real treasure they're after is never given listed stats, nor is the villain who is instigating them to attack. Those are, apparently, beyond the scope of the adventure, and not printed here.

Downer - By Kyle Stanley Hunter. Downer turns the tables on his attackers, and has a comrade prepare to find out what the real story behind the attack is.

The Dark Sun DM's Guide - By David Noonan. This section largely describes the seven city-states of the Tablelands, after giving a brief overview of the campaign world, it's timeline, and demographics. After that is a very short (less than a full page) description of what's beyond the Tablelands.

The first part of the guide describes the feel of Dark Sun, with the best description being "fundamentally, Dark Sun is a campaign setting where the bad guys have already won", and gives two most common adventure themes as being revolution, and ecological fable.

The sidebar on page 60 describes the cosmology of Dark Sun, and it's as sparse as the rest of the campaign world. Besides the Material Plane, there is the Gray (the Border/Deep Ethereal), the Black (the Shadow Plane), and the four Elemental Planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water). There are no Outer Planes, so Outsiders come from the Gray, the Black, or an Elemental Plane. Distant regions of the Gray have wellsprings of life energy, effectively functiong as a Positive Energy Plane. Likewise, distant regions of the Black have wellsprings of death energy, functioning as a Negative Energy Plane.

The map on page 61 outlines the Tablelands, though you have to turn it sideways to make it look for familiar to Dark Sun veterans. Don't worry, it hasn't been redrawn, though unlike the revised boxed set of old, it doesn't show anything beyond the Tablelands (no distant city-states in the north, no Kreen Empire in the west, and no Obsidian Lands in the south are shown, though presumably all are there).

Although the spacial constraints of the setting haven't been expanded (the Kreen Empire gets obliquely mentioned once, and things like Eldaarich, Kurn/New Kurn, and the Obsidian Lands don't get a mention at all; likewise, don't expect to find out what's on the other side of the Silt Sea), the timeline of the campaign has advanced...drastically. Three hundred years have passed since the previous Dark Sun material. It is now the Year of Desert's Reverence in the 194th King's Age. This was done to make this incarnation a "safe harbor" so it doesn't conflict with existing material (meaning that this material, at least, shouldn't conflict with what you'll see over at www.athas.org though they never once mention the fan site beyond Erik Mona's introduction in the "Last Stand at Outpost Three" adventure).

The greatest changes in the three hundred year interim is that of the seven city-states, six have sorcerer-kings. That's right, six. Hamanu still rules Urik, Nibenay controls the city-state that bears his name (and the elan, a race from the Expanded Psionics Handbook are from there, having been created there by the Order before that cabal fell apart three centuries ago), and Lalali-Puy, the Oba, rules Gulg. However, Andropinis returned to Balic a century ago...and he brought the maenads with him (the second of the two races from the Expanded Psionics Handbook used in this setting now, half-giants notwithstanding, since they're originally from this campaign). Raam was conquered over two centuries ago by Dregoth, and it's his city now, and everyone knows it. Finally, in Draj, Atzetuk, the young man used as a puppet by the templars of that city and the House of the Mind psionicists, has long since thrown off his mental shackles and become a true dragon-king, destroying the House of the Mind and cowering the templars into submission. Only Tyr still has no sorcerer-king.

A very short sidebar is given on the dragon-kings themselves. It mentions that they aren't deities, but are the most powerful individuals in the world, since they "combine the versatility of an epic spellcaster with the sheer toughness of a dragon" and have their templars and armies. It also says that giving full stats for the dragon-kings would only be useful to epic parties, so there's little use in giving them here. It says that dragon-kings are "epic-level wizards who've performed a lengthy ritual required to turn them into a dragon - a ritual that gives them epic psionic power as well" (Dark Sun fans will note this is incorrect, dragon-kings needed to be epic wizards and psionicists before being able to become dragons).

The last paragraph of the sidebar says "If you need to run a dragon-king on the fly, assume they have the physical statistics of a great wyrm dragon, the spellcasting power of a 22nd-level wizard and the psionic power of a 22nd-level psion."

Each city-state has a listing of its demographics, lands, settlements, power groups, beliefs, commerce, language, arts and crafts, and entertainment. For characters from that city-state, there is a listing of why citizens would adventure, how their charater development cound proceed, and sample character names. Each city-state also has one "notable" NPC given full stats, a section on what a basic guard NPC would look like (stats fully given), and adventure seeds for that city-state. Also, Tyr has a full-page map of the city.

Dark Sun Monsters, part one - by David Noonan. This section has 23 new monsters for the Dark Sun campaign (most of them written up from 2E). Note that with the Athasian Zombie template in the adventure, thats 24, one short of how many said to be in this issue on the cover. Part two of this feature will be in Dungeon #111.

This opens with a mention that most mammilian animals don't exist on Athas. Also, "animals here can have psionic powers, so long as those aren't central to their threat as monsters. Animals that use psionics to survive should be created as magical beasts." After this is a compiled list of Athasian monsters, listed by increasing CR. The list not only includes all the monsters from parts one and two of this feature (meaning we know what monsters will be featured next month), but also selections from the Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiend Folio, Manual of the Planes, Monster Manual II, and Draconomicon. There are also a few name changes to what monsters from other worlds are called on Athas.

The monsters listed here are the baazrag (CR 1), boneclaw baazrag (CR 4), cilops (CR 5), Cinderbrute (CR 1), Cloudscout (CR 1), Critic Lizard (CR 1/4), Crodlu (CR 5), Floater (CR 1/2), Gith (CR 1), Speckled Hurrum (C 1/6), Inix (CR 5), Jankx (CR 1/3), Kank (CR 2), Kes'trekel (CR 1/3), Mekillot (CR 7), Mulworm (CR 1/6), Pterrax (CR 4), Ramphor (CR 1/6), Sand Howler (CR 6), Sandknight (CR 1), Spinewyrm (it's a true dragon, so it's twelve CR ratings are 2; 3; 5; 8; 9; 11; 13; 15; 17; 19; 20; 22), Wavearcher (CR 1), and Z'Tal (CR 1/2).

Next month's monsters will be the Rainrunner (CR 1/3), Earthdelver (CR 1/3), Firesnake (CR 1/3), Windraptor (CR 1/2), Yallix (CR 1/2), Zhackal (CR 1), Belgoi (CR 2), Erdlu (CR 2), Seskarran (CR 2), Jhakar (CR 3), Rasclinn (CR 3), Fordorran (CR 4), Lirr (CR 4), Razorwing (CR 4), Dune Reaper Drone (CR 5), Mastyrial (CR 8), Dune Reaper Warrior (CR 11), and Gaj (CR 11).

Also, in case anyone wants to know, the monsters from the Expanded Psionics Handbook are Brain Mole (CR 1/2), Folugub (CR 2), Crysmal (CR 3), Udoroot (CR 5), Gray Glutton (CR 7), Intellect Devourer (CR 7), Caller in Darkness (CR 9), and Psion-killer (CR 12).
 
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Kai Lord

Explorer
Fantastic write-up, Alzrius, much appreciated! Looks like I'll be purchasing my first issue of Dungeon ever.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
This issue of Dungeon didn't feature a preview for the upcoming issue of Dragon. However, it did say what to expect in issue #111. Here's the blurb:

DON'T MISS DUNGEON #111!
Dungeon provides the very best in official DUNGEONS & DRAGONS adventures every single month! Next issue's offerings include:

Lords of Oblivion
By Christopher Perkins
The Shackled City Adventure Path enters the home stretch as the forces of evil take direct action against the heroes of Cauldron. Dangerous secrets will be revealed, important NPCs will bite the dust, and your heroes will never know who to trust again! BONUS: Take a glimpse at the campaign's villains in our special "Faces of Cauldron" art feature. A D&D adventure for 13th-level characters.

Strike on the Rabid Dawn
By Frank Brunner
A terrible thunderstorn batters a seaside port, yet thunder and lightning are nothing compared to what is about to be unleashed by the diabolic crew of the Rabid Dawn. A D&D adventure for 15th-level characters.

POLYHEDRON #170
Don't miss POLYHEDRON's STAR WARS, d20 Modern, and LIVING GREYHAWK content, coming your way in 30 days!

Although this doesn't mention it, this issue (presumably in the Polyhedron section) will have the rest of the Dark Sun monsters mentioned above.
 


Out of curiousity what are the classes mentioned that the NPCs have? Is there something that strongly seems like it is the 4th psionic class, and is there a Templar or Gladiator core class?
 

rounser

First Post
The usual litany of letters, ranging from praise for great content to desires to see Polyhedron purged from the pages of the magazine.
The odd thing to me is that when Dragon ran that revival of old campaign settings with new material thing, it generated a lot of interest (on these boards at least...yeah yeah I know we're not representative) and people asked if it could be ongoing, and Erik replied that he didn't think there would be enough interest to make it ongoing. My response is that anecdotal evidence suggests that such a feature would be more popular than minigames, but then again I don't have marketing data at hand eh...
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Kobold Avenger said:
Out of curiousity what are the classes mentioned that the NPCs have?

Let's see. The adventure has Rogues, Rangers, Fighters, a Cleric (Fire), a Psion (egoist), a Psion (seer), Psychic Warriors, and a Soulknife. A few of the NPCs are multiclassed (Ranger/Rogues, Fighter/Rogues, etc.)

The DM's Guide section has a Cleric/Psion (telepath), a Cleric, a Druid, a Cleric, a Rogue, a Rogue/Wilder, and a Fighter, in that order. This doesn't include the stats for the generic NPC guards, but there wasn't anything there you didn't see elsewhere on what I've listed.

Is there something that strongly seems like it is the 4th psionic class, and is there a Templar or Gladiator core class?

Hmm, I thought we already knew what the four psionic base classes would be. Either way, looking through the Dark Sun sections, there is at least one character for all four psionic base classes. They are:

Psion (Psi)
Psychic Warrior (Psy)
Wilder (Wil)
Soulknife (abbreviation not given)

Of course, there's a fifth, original psionic base class, called the Erudite, premiering in Dragon #319 also, side-by-side with the Dark Sun content to boot!

In regards to Templars and Gladiators, there are no templars in the adventure, but the DM's Guide has a few as NPCs. They use the Cleric class to represent being templars, and can apparently multiclass normally (some low-level gate-guarding templars in Nibenay are Clr2/Psi2 (telepath). Gladiators never were mentioned as a class at all, so while they might still be a new class, I doubt it, given what we've seen.
 
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pogre

Legend
rounser said:
The odd thing to me is that when Dragon ran that revival of old campaign settings with new material thing, it generated a lot of interest (on these boards at least...yeah yeah I know we're not representative) and people asked if it could be ongoing, and Erik replied that he didn't think there would be enough interest to make it ongoing. My response is that anecdotal evidence suggests that such a feature would be more popular than minigames, but then again I don't have marketing data at hand eh...

I do not feel very strongly about what they present in Poly, but old campaign worlds do not appeal to me as much. Specific setting stuff in the adventures really turns me off - it robs the zine of much of its usefulness for me. Looks like I'll save $8 on this go around.

To each their own, eh? ;)
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Kobold Avenger said:
Here's another question, if Dregoth took over Raam and is still around, what happened to his Dray?

The dray never even get mentioned. Dregoth has living templars, and undead ones, but it seems to imply that the living ones are human (or at least of other "standard" races for Dark Sun). The example templar given is a high ranking (living) human one.

For more clarification, undead walk Raam openly, side by side with the living, and Dregoth encourages the notion that death is merely a (minor) change in status, nothing more.
 

Grummore

Explorer
About Darksun:

1- Did he mentionned how he intend to explain where does come from the maenads and the elan (which is male "moose" in french) in a setting where the plane and world sphere are closed to all the others worlds?

2- Why having converted monsters that as already been converted by athas.org in a pdf document of about 200 pages (without images already) (lots of monsters!!!)?
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
rounser said:
The odd thing to me is that when Dragon ran that revival of old campaign settings with new material thing, it generated a lot of interest (on these boards at least...yeah yeah I know we're not representative) and people asked if it could be ongoing, and Erik replied that he didn't think there would be enough interest to make it ongoing. My response is that anecdotal evidence suggests that such a feature would be more popular than minigames, but then again I don't have marketing data at hand eh...
As long they don't touch the mini-games or reduce the number of mini-games a year, I don't mind the Campaign Classics, but it is better serve in Dragon magazine.

HOWEVER, I don't mind crossover treatment, like Dark Sun.

Unfortunately, not many people (especially those who run the "official FAN web site") feel that DS do not deserve this kind of treatment.

P.S. Don't touch my mini-games. :]
 

Erebus

First Post
Ranger REG said:
Unfortunately, not many people (especially those who run the "official FAN web site") feel that DS do not deserve this kind of treatment.

Yeah, but that's just because they're bitter. They don't own the rights to DS yet they see it as their baby since they're been taking care of it since the setting was "dumped" with the advent of 3e. AFAIAC, it's WotC's property and if they want to release a new version, they're completely within their rights. Does anyone (outside of those who run the site) actually use athas.org material anyway? That's not meant as an insult or anything - I'm actually really curious to know.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Grummore said:
1- Did he mentionned how he intend to explain where does come from the maenads and the elan (which is male "moose" in french) in a setting where the plane and world sphere are closed to all the others worlds?

Hm, I thought I made this clear in the summation I gave above.

The elan were created by psionicists of The Order, roughly around the time of the old campaign setting of DS (about three hundred years ago), in and around Nibenay. When The Order fell apart, they were freed, and even today most of them are found in Nibenay.

The maenads are somewhat more mysterious. When Andropinis was imprisoned (in The Cerulean Storm) in the Black, he was actually confined in a demiplane in the Black. However, using his own considerable power, he found an indirect escape route; moving from demiplane to demiplane. In one demiplane, he found the maenads, who were likewise trapped in the Black. He managed to enact a ritual that freed themselves and him, bringing them to Athas with him (this was about a century ago). It's implied that they somehow were involved in this ritual, since it mentions that some maenads are bitter that his promises about better lives have gone unfulfilled, and some of them are bitter that he has forgotten "the maenads who sacrificed so much to free him from the Black."

2- Why having converted monsters that as already been converted by athas.org in a pdf document of about 200 pages (without images already) (lots of monsters!!!)?

I'm the wrong person to ask here, and I'm not stepping into the mire of this debate. Personally, I think it's better for the magazine to print DS monsters instead of just referring people to athas.org.
 
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rounser

First Post
As long they don't touch the mini-games or reduce the number of mini-games a year, I don't mind the Campaign Classics, but it is better serve in Dragon magazine.
I disagree. Ephemera, non-fantasy-genre stuff and stuff which you read and never use has always been primarily Dragon magazine's domain, which is why I think Dungeon magazine followers are so intolerant of what was once more or less a pure D&D vehicle in it's "glory days", and why I expect that if there has to be something which isn't adventures in Dungeon, D&D setting material would be a lot more welcome - at least it's a lot more relevant to adapt than another rules excursion into another genre. Dragon magazine fans are used to a variety of games, non-applicable to game articles (like reviews and short stories) and genres being covered in their mag.
 
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Grummore

Explorer
Erebus said:
Yeah, but that's just because they're bitter. They don't own the rights to DS yet they see it as their baby since they're been taking care of it since the setting was "dumped" with the advent of 3e. AFAIAC, it's WotC's property and if they want to release a new version, they're completely within their rights. Does anyone (outside of those who run the site) actually use athas.org material anyway? That's not meant as an insult or anything - I'm actually really curious to know.

Of course they don't own the right. It's like a factory, your boss own the plant, but it give you instruction for a final product. What happen if, after FOUR years of job on something, you get a wonderful product and all of the sudden, he buy the SAME thing you worked on for 4 year from another company. That's VERY frustrating.

Yes, it's their right to ask for a new version, but what is they DIDNT even considered the first one (athas.org one) ? Hum? That LEAST consideration would have been to look at the work of the peoples who worked all this time for you without you to worry about a dead setting. They KEPT the setting alive all these year, they should deserve more respect.

Btw, before asking if someone actually use these rules, go where peoples speak about it and go to the WotC darksun board and you will see plenty of peoples using it; I am one of these. The WotC DS board is a VERY active one and healthy. You would be surprised to see how many competents peoples are there (I do not include myself in these peoples but I try to do my best).

Not only have they produced something of quality, balanced to d20, find game guru to balance their things, have peoples to do a good adventures and fluff things, but they have used the power of the community to playtest and find ideas on the settings. I doubt Dragon mag as done this.

And like you said "That's not meant as an insult or anything - I'm actually really curious to know" if you ever when to the DS board, athas.org site or the couple of DS sites that worth over the net. You would see the incredible job that as been done there.

Thanks.
 
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Grummore

Explorer
Alzrius said:
Hm, I thought I made this clear in the summation I gave above.

The elan were created by psionicists of The Order, roughly around the time of the old campaign setting of DS (about three hundred years ago), in and around Nibenay. When The Order fell apart, they were freed, and even today most of them are found in Nibenay.

The maenads are somewhat more mysterious.

Yes, sorry, I missed that part of your explanation about Elan. Thanks for the maenads answer.

Alzrius said:
I'm the wrong person to ask here, and I'm not stepping into the mire of this debate. Personally, I think it's better for the magazine to print DS monsters instead of just referring people to athas.org.

I understand it's better for a magazine to print monsters for a settings, but why didnt they bothered have the same monsters than athas.org? They could have at least share their though and they could have share informations and creates the SAME monsters, no? Just look at the Mekillot which is CR 7 in Noonan conversion... At athas.org, it's CR 12 ! Geez it's a big difference! How can he explain that such big creature as a pathetic CR 7? Well... I though IMHO that they SHOULD have converge to ONE conversion so there wouldnt be two over the DS community.

Another example of patheticness: the Half-giant from WotC that will be in the new PsiHB; it's soooooo weak it's not half-giant, it's a man with big muscles! The half-giant was developped in Darksun, why having destroy the feeling of a REAL half-giant with such absurdity? That's what I said in the earlier post when I meant that they SHOULD at least consider what as already been made.

Please peoples, before doing anymore post about darksun, if you dont know what's been done, at least go to athas.org .
 

irdeggman

First Post
Erebus said:
Yeah, but that's just because they're bitter. They don't own the rights to DS yet they see it as their baby since they're been taking care of it since the setting was "dumped" with the advent of 3e. AFAIAC, it's WotC's property and if they want to release a new version, they're completely within their rights. Does anyone (outside of those who run the site) actually use athas.org material anyway? That's not meant as an insult or anything - I'm actually really curious to know.

And if WotC published something no one at Athas.org would have flinched. Unfortuneatly WotC no longer owns Dragon or Dungeon and these "official" products are being published by a group that has nothing more than a passing interest in the setting. That is, in order to make any money Paizo (the company that now owns Dragon and Dungeon) cannot devote any significant amount of space to any one campaign setting, except of course Forgotten Realms since it is the 'money maker'.

So it is indeed more than being bitter which is a sad statement to make to degrade those at Athas.org (and the Dark Sun boards) in that manner. Remember that the group at Atha.org prepared it but it went out for playtesting and comment by the fans with many comment being cycled through the Dark Sun boards.
 

Erebus

First Post
Grummore said:
Yes, it's their right to ask for a new version, but what is they DIDNT even considered the first one (athas.org one) ? Hum? That LEAST consideration would have been to look at the work of the peoples who worked all this time for you without you to worry about a dead setting. They KEPT the setting alive all these year, they should deserve more respect.

Who's to say WotC didn't consider their work? Maybe they simply didn't like what they saw. I've seen some of the material produced by athas.org and I wasn't all that blown away by it, but that's just me. Also, the DS setting never "died" for me. I still have all my DS material even after getting rid of my other 2e books. In fact, I've gone as far as to buy OoP DS stuff in hopes of completing my collection.

Btw, before asking if someone actually use these rules, go where peoples speak about it and go to the WotC darksun board and you will see plenty of peoples using it; I am one of these. The WotC DS board is a VERY active one and healthy. You would be surprised to see how many competents peoples are there (I do not include myself in these peoples but I try to do my best).

I've been to the DS boards. It's pretty apparent not everyone there uses the athas.org material when a lot of people are posting their own d20 conversions and/or links to their own DS website. Perhaps I should clarify my question: Besides athas.org and their most ardent followers, what percentage of DS fans use their material? I mean, I consider myself a fan of DS and I support a DS revival, but I don't use any of their material. Again, of the thousands of DS fans, how many of them (%) actually do? They may be the "official fan site" but their material is far from official.

Not only have they produced something of quality, balanced to d20, find game guru to balance their things, have peoples to do a good adventures and fluff things, but they have used the power of the community to playtest and find ideas on the settings. I doubt Dragon mag as done this.

Perhaps. However, I'd counter that probably more DS fans would be inclined to use "official" material produced by professional game designers than they would the material on athas.org or anywhere else for that matter. And that's not meant as a slight against athas.org or anyone else. There are a lot of DM's who won't use anything produced by 3rd-party sources regardless of who they are (i.e. Green Ronin, Malhavoc). If it isn't WotC, they simply pass over it.

And like you said "That's not meant as an insult or anything - I'm actually really curious to know" if you ever when to the DS board, athas.org site or the couple of DS sites that worth over the net. You would see the incredible job that as been done there.

Yeah, I've been to many of the fan DS sites. Some material is okay, some is not okay, AFAIAC. A lot of the stuff I've encountered has been fairly "fanboyish" and/or stale. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.


Thank YOU.
 

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