Dungeon #110

reiella

First Post
Eric Anondson said:
Something which the fansites can do which other "official" producers of material can't do (and often seemed not to care about as they cycled through new authors again and again) is reconcile differences. Dark Sun's publishing history is a lengthy list of conflicts of "fact". Athas.org can, and has, worked out wrinkles like this.


Eric Anondson (pseudo-retired Athas.org stiff)

And those decisions were some of those turned some individuals away from athas.org. Not myself mind you, just one of the most common complaints I've seen.

Although, I think it's mostly something that they don't care to do. Unless you're refering specifically to "Dead Worlds" (that aren't supported by WotC directly). The intent of Beyond the Prism Pentad was mostly a reconcile attempt, but I think I see your point, looking at PGF and the new Cosmology I don't see any attempt to resolve some of the other FR canon in those regards.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Eric Anondson said:
Something which the fansites can do which other "official" producers of material can't do (and often seemed not to care about as they cycled through new authors again and again) is reconcile differences. Dark Sun's publishing history is a lengthy list of conflicts of "fact". Athas.org can, and has, worked out wrinkles like this.

First point: This doesn't necessarily change anything about which is more official.

Second point: Who says only official fan sites can reconcile things that don't match up? WotC/TSR has done that before, and probably will do so again (Wulgreth from FR comes to mind).
 

Erebus

First Post
In regards to canon, I consider any material produced by WotC directly to be such. Therein lies the confusion I had over the "official" status of athas.org. (In hindsight and after my incorrect assumption had been pointed out by Nytcrawler, I do seem to vaguely recall reading about this at one time. Alas, that was several years ago and my memory isn't very good. My apologies.)

From reading what appears to be the agreement between WotC and the fan sites in another thread, it sounds to me like this official status can be revoked at any time by WotC. If this is the case, in the future couldn't they simply ignore the hard work being done over at athas.org if they chose to do so, thus nullifying any of this material? They do, after all, still hold the IP rights.

It could end up like that season of Dallas where Bobby died but it turned out it was all just a dream. (Jeez, I'm really beginning to show my age now.) It's like someone else mentioned regarding the Star Wars license... it's official and "correct" until George says it isn't and/or does something in his movies that completely contradicts it.
 

Kesh

First Post
In a manner of speaking, that's what happend with Ravenloft and its fansite. There was a lot of good work there, but once that liscence was sold off to be published, the website was no longer allowed to do independant work on the setting.

On the one hand, this means we will likely never see some of the unpublished material the folks on the site were working on (some of them were authors of Ravenloft material of old). For the flip side, we now have a fully published and supported version of Ravenloft 3.5e that's available offline.

Some good, some bad.
 

irdeggman

First Post
Erebus said:
It could end up like that season of Dallas where Bobby died but it turned out it was all just a dream. (Jeez, I'm really beginning to show my age now.) It's like someone else mentioned regarding the Star Wars license... it's official and "correct" until George says it isn't and/or does something in his movies that completely contradicts it.

Actually I remember watching the 'shower' scene myself - although I was more of a Knot's Landing fan. I remember Alec Baldwin's (in Knot's Landing) appearance there.

And I also know what the "G" stood for in Maynard G. Crebbs (from the Many Loves of Dobie Gillis TV show).
 


Emirikol

Adventurer
pogre said:
I do not feel very strongly about what they present in Poly, but old campaign worlds do not appeal to me as much.


I'd rather see DUNGEON print adventures and Dragon take care of stuff like Poly (which I consider redundant and 85% useless).

Subscriptions are $45.00. Dungeon is worth about $30. Well, that's about it. I'm paying $15 for 'maybe' something useful about 1/12th of the time in Poly.

Poly's got to go if Paizo expects people to pay for Dungeon. Occasional stuff like this DARK SUN blockbuster is nice, but every issue is otherwise a waste and I'd rather see adventures (which I can use :) (IMHO).

There, I finally said it.

jh
 
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Mach2.5

First Post
Eric Anondson (pseudo-retired Athas.org stiff)

Straying off topic for a moment, how retired from the athas.org team are you then Eric? Not asking for explanations that are none of my business, just curious to know if you are, even in a small way, still working with them.
 

irdeggman

First Post
WanderingMonster said:
Okay, I'll bite. What does the G stand for? Gilligan?

"Like Walter, Dobe."

For those who don't know the reference - The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis was a sitcom with Dwayne Hickman and Bob Denver (as Maynard G Crebs) {prior to Gilligan's Island}. Maynard was the coffee-house beatnik type character (remember this was in the early 60's after all)

It also 'introduced' Warren Beatty and Tuesday Weld to national exposure.
 
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Welverin

First Post
Emirikol said:
Subscriptions are $45.00. Dungeon is worth about $30. Well, that's about it. I'm paying $15 for 'maybe' something useful about 1/12th of the time in Poly.

What makes you think that would make any difference? I'd bet it has to do with Dragon's higher circulation, which allows them to sell it for less (ust like the large print runs on the core books allows WotC to sell them for less).

Poly's got to go if Paizo expects people to pay for Dungeon. Occasional stuff like this DARK SUN blockbuster is nice, but every issue is otherwise a waste and I'd rather see adventures (which I can use :) (IMHO).

Nice of you to assume everyone thinks the same way you do.

I like Poly and would be pissed if it went away. Though I do agree that it would fit better with Dragon, but based on comments from Erik, I don't see it happening.
 

SSquirrel

Explorer
Erebus said:
It's like someone else mentioned regarding the Star Wars license... it's official and "correct" until George says it isn't and/or does something in his movies that completely contradicts it.
That would have been me and that's exactly the way I see things happening in the future. If this DS revival does the unreal and starts a HUGE interest in DS again, WOTC could do 1 of 2 things....1)Ignore Athas.org, null the contract and do a new version of Dark Sun. Hardback, 320 pages, stickied in map of the region. Support to follow based on interest. 2)Talk to athas.org about taking the stuff they've done, possibly tweaking it some, expanding a little and doing what I already mentioned.

I think we all know which would be preferred and the better from the community's eyes (as a nod to the fans)

Hagen
 

JPL

Adventurer
SSquirrel said:
That would have been me and that's exactly the way I see things happening in the future. If this DS revival does the unreal and starts a HUGE interest in DS again, WOTC could do 1 of 2 things....1)Ignore Athas.org, null the contract and do a new version of Dark Sun. Hardback, 320 pages, stickied in map of the region. Support to follow based on interest. 2)Talk to athas.org about taking the stuff they've done, possibly tweaking it some, expanding a little and doing what I already mentioned.

I think we all know which would be preferred and the better from the community's eyes (as a nod to the fans)

Hagen

What I would prefer is the best project possible.

If WotC can do that by printing out athas.org in its entirety and putting a staple in it, that's what they should do.

If WotC can do that by throwing out everything athas.org has done, then they should do that.

It would be courteous to acknowledge the website for keeping the flame burning all these years, but that may just involve a dedication on the title page rather than actually asking for their input.

[No slam against athas.org intended here --- I'm just saying that creative demands and business demands must precede any perceived debt of honor owed to the fan sites.]
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
Mach2.5 said:
Straying off topic for a moment, how retired from the athas.org team are you then Eric? Not asking for explanations that are none of my business, just curious to know if you are, even in a small way, still working with them.

Well, I was recruited to convert spells, as well as assist developing a coherent cosmology in MotP terms. I did the layout on the very first Terrors of the Deadlands, also. I also helped with other little things, like personal interviews with Troy Denning and Tim Brown, notes of which I had turned over to Athas.org. I can't begin to describe how much time and effort was put in to it. Then, my wife and I sold our house and moved to a new one. Simply put, my spare time disappeared and I couldn't commit to any responsibilities with house hunting/selling going on. I dropped my projects, but stuck around the "Senate" mailing lists for discussion purposes... for a while.

Of course, over time my attention drifted and I just stopped actively discussing things. Also, unfortunately, after I bought a new computer I lost all of my email information for the Senate mailing list. I never bothered to get back on because I had so drifted away from it. So, it was a slow motion pseudo-retirement. :)

Of course, when my free-time came back I had taken up Living Greyhawk, and mapping all of Greyhawk (Look at www.canonfire.com for them). I eventually did a stint on the Triad for my region (Shield Lands). Lightning struck again and we sold our house again, so I also retired from that Triad a couple months ago. I'm still doing my mapping! Hmm, I wonder if Dark Sun fans would have an audience for something like that...


Regards,
Eric Anondson
 

SSquirrel

Explorer
Grummore said:
Did you played 3e DS or you continued playing your darksun in 2e? Not dead for me is that there is still material produced, produced in 3E to follow the edition. Did you used the old product or you used new material? You surely didnt used new material because I dont think you converted all the DS rules to 3e, unless I am mistaken. Buying old material and completing a collection doesnt make a setting alive; building new and converting old does.
For me dead would mean no longer officially supported by the company. However, that just leaves the product "mostly dead"(blatant Princess Bride theft). The product isn't truly dead until no one anywhere plays it.

He doesn't need to use 3E to enjoy DS> He doesn't need to convert jack. All he needs are a boxed set and his imagination if he desires. If completing his collection of DS gives him more goodies he wants to run, it keeps the setting alive FOR HIM. Having the material, getting to play it...this is the only thing important. He could run it all under OD&D if he really desired, but that would just be silly. Maybe he converted it all over to GURPS or Palladium. Tri Stat? Options are endless.

Grummore said:
Btw, in which way did you supported DS in all these years? Buying old DS pdf? How did you helped to keep DS alive and healthy all these years? How did you contributed in pushing DS to 3ed ? Did you made your own conversion? Did you post anything ever everywhere about DS ? That'S what I call supporting, not monitoring.
From his posts it sounds like he kept it healthy and alive (for himself and his group at least) by buying the prudtcs and continuing to enjoy the game in whatever fashion he liked. Looking at his original post you quoted he said "I support a DS revival". This makes no statement at all about if he's done any work on conversions or anything, but that if a revival of interest in DS were to happen he would be cheering and applauding and yelling "Go Team!!".

Hagen
 

Erebus

First Post
SSquirrel said:
This makes no statement at all about if he's done any work on conversions or anything, but that if a revival of interest in DS were to happen he would be cheering and applauding and yelling "Go Team!!".

Hagen

Yes, exactly. Thanks for having my back on those points. :)

Anyway, another DS note to pass along: Paizo has put up the cover to Dragon #319.
 

SSquirrel

Explorer
Erebus said:
Yes, exactly. Thanks for having my back on those points. :)

Anyway, another DS note to pass along: Paizo has put up the cover to Dragon #319.
Sometimes an initial reading of an opinion comes off wrong for whatever reason and so someone needs to clarify a point or 2. I sometimes haveto smooth things over with my wife and our housemate as Rebecca will say things that Ginegr interprets wrong, but I got the original meaning and re-express them in a way that makes a bit more sense and is less tension inducing.

The cover is nice. Definitely fits the setting. Not Brom, but Brom wasn't the only guy who did art for DS heh.

Hagen
 

Mach2.5

First Post
Of course, when my free-time came back I had taken up Living Greyhawk, and mapping all of Greyhawk (Look at www.canonfire.com for them). I eventually did a stint on the Triad for my region (Shield Lands). Lightning struck again and we sold our house again, so I also retired from that Triad a couple months ago. I'm still doing my mapping! Hmm, I wonder if Dark Sun fans would have an audience for something like that...

I've always had a soft spot for Greyhawk and I've loved the maps that you've done up for it. I seriously doubt that anyone would object to you doing the same for Athas. Great stuff.
 

Wycen

Explorer
Alzrius said:
The sidebar on page 60 describes the cosmology of Dark Sun, and it's as sparse as the rest of the campaign world. Besides the Material Plane, there is the Gray (the Border/Deep Ethereal), the Black (the Shadow Plane), and the four Elemental Planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water). There are no Outer Planes, so Outsiders come from the Gray, the Black, or an Elemental Plane. Distant regions of the Gray have wellsprings of life energy, effectively functiong as a Positive Energy Plane. Likewise, distant regions of the Black have wellsprings of death energy, functioning as a Negative Energy Plane.

This opens with a mention that most mammilian animals don't exist on Athas. Also, "animals here can have psionic powers, so long as those aren't central to their threat as monsters. Animals that use psionics to survive should be created as magical beasts." After this is a compiled list of Athasian monsters, listed by increasing CR. The list not only includes all the monsters from parts one and two of this feature (meaning we know what monsters will be featured next month), but also selections from the Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiend Folio, Manual of the Planes, Monster Manual II, and Draconomicon. There are also a few name changes to what monsters from other worlds are called on Athas.

I seem to recall that there was a 10th level spell to summon or make a pact with demons lords. I can't remember whether they ever had demons or devils in published adventures. Is there any mention of these types of evil outsiders anywhere?

Thanks
 

Mach2.5

First Post
I seem to recall that there was a 10th level spell to summon or make a pact with demons lords. I can't remember whether they ever had demons or devils in published adventures. Is there any mention of these types of evil outsiders anywhere?

While I don't recall fiends in any of the published adventures, they were listed as viable monsters to use on Athas in both the original and revised boxed sets, as well as the DS monster compendiums. As for the 10th level spell, you may be thinking of Planar Vassal (capture and control an outer planar creature of opposite alignment, but the priest has to gate in the particular creature type first).
 

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