Dungeon 185 - Bark at the Moon: Dungeons biggest adventure

[Aegeri]

Look- I don't care if you like or dislike dungeon tiles in adventures that's your opinion... but it's not a mark of inferior quality because it's not your preferred method of mapping

From my point of view, the dungeon tile knockoffs that take 5 minutes to do and just throw into the magazine, are the symbol of the magazines decline as a useful resource for me. I am no longer content to pay for this - because what else am I getting out of my subscription? - anymore and quite frankly, I'm capable of throwing together dungeon tile maps as well. I don't need to pay for the privilege of having Wizards to do that for me.

I've put up with dungeon delve rubbish for months. In some ways I didn't complain enough as mentally I always had the monster builder to justify my subscription while dungeon wasn't publishing meaningful adventures. That's gone now. In the end, the fact I was too silent and never said enough when insipid dungeon tile delves began replacing the actual magazines cartography, makes my very complaints my own fault. But very soon I am not going to have a valid opinion worth anything: I won't be a subscriber anymore.

I am tired of endless disappointment.

 

[ourchair]

Sounds like you've not been one of the voices clamouring that official adventures should support Dungeon Tiles

I actually like it if adventure modules use them. If anything it will give the adventure designers hints how to improve the Dungeon Tiles so they're more usable and useful.

I like it too.

The way I see it is this:

If you're new to DMing or Dungeons & Dragons, it's pretty neat if you can get into the game, buy the books and some tiles and find an adventure that makes whole use of the tiles.

I draw my own maps, or improvise them based off the 'ideas' in a module, but the use of tiles in this major length adventure using tiles is like acknowledging the investment and trying to make something 'big' out of it.

Now I wouldn't want them to keep doing that, but as once in a while thing, it's great because you can say, "I want to find a pre-made adventure that uses all these tiles I bought" and this is something that can be pointed to.

 

[Mirtek]

I don't really get the background story of the adventures. If these lycanthropes were merely refugees, how could they conquer a large territory formerly held by the court of stars? For that they would need to be a really impressive army with god-like leaders (as the CoS is lead by the god-like archfey).

However such an army would need to number in the thousands or even tens of thousands, so what could turn such an impressive force into refugees? They could certainly rival any worldly empire at the height of it's power

 

[Klaus]

They're stronger in the Feywild because the Moon is stronger there.

Also, the Court of Stars isn't a unified front, but rather a sporadic gathering of archfey from the Summer, Green and Sea courts (to name a few).

 

[Dice4Hire]

And there was me thinking this thread contained 5 pages discussing the actual adventure

Your post could have, but does not.

 

[Stoat]

The actual adventure looks pretty good and seems to address some of the issues that folks in the community have been raising about WotC's adventure writing.

There are multiple friendly NPC's, with the expectation that the PC's will be doing a fair amount of talking, investigating and role playing.

There are three combat encounters, each with different types of opponent. Unfortunately, the combat areas are fairly generic outdoor environments.

The backstory is somewhat unusual, which I like. Even better, the PC's have multiple chances to actually learn the backstory.

It's only half an adventure, and I can't say how much I like it until the second part is published. But, its definitely a cut above Dungeon's recent offerings.

Also, there really, really needs to be a map of the village where the adventure takes place:

[sblock]
Enounter 2 involves a battle between the PC's and some lycanthrope raiders. The PC's know the monsters are coming and have time to prepare. The adventure specifically states:

"Over the hours leading up to the attack, allow the heroes to make whatever preparations they wish. This is your chance to let the characters determine the battle’s course by setting booby traps, performing rituals or martial practices, or preparing consumables that would prove useful in the fight."

And then the adventure provides a small, two building battlemap for the actual fight.

This is a case where mapping does impact the quality of the adventure. The lack of an area map makes it that much more difficult for the players to envision good places to set an ambush, defensible strong points, chokepoints that could be trapped, etc. etc.
[/sblock]

 

[Nahat Anoj]

While I like good maps, ultimately they are a minor issue to me.

The adventure seems fine. I was hoping to get more information about the relationship between lycanthropes and Sehanine in the 4e world. I recall reading somewhere (maybe Worlds & Monsters?) that Sehanine isn't a fan of them - if so, why not?

 

[Klaus]

While I like good maps, ultimately they are a minor issue to me.

The adventure seems fine. I was hoping to get more information about the relationship between lycanthropes and Sehanine in the 4e world. I recall reading somewhere (maybe Worlds & Monsters?) that Sehanine isn't a fan of them - if so, why not?

Lycanthropes are affected by the moon due to a feud between Sehanine and Melora.

 

[Primal]

Fair enough, and I really should have specified that it is inferior for my purposes. I try to be pretty careful about that, and you are absolutely correct that there are people for whom tile-built maps are superior.

That said, I suspect that even many people that prefer the maps to be constructed from tiles would agree that a good non-tile map is prettier/more aesthetic. And I really think there is a qualitative difference because it is specifically made for the adventure, instead of being stock footage (if you know what I mean). I think a good map custom made for the adventure can really help tell the adventure's story. Again, if you're familiar with the Gates of Firestorm Peak, take a look at the poster map that shows the dungeon.

Spoiler

As you get deeper into it towards the Far Realmsy stuff, the map gets increasingly twisted, weird and creepy.

Likewise, the maps in the original Keep on the Borderlands tell a tale- you can see how overpopulated the Caves of Chaos must be. Or the map of the castle in L1, where you can see a great deal of the place's history in the fireball scars and ruined siege equipment, or similarly in Red Hand of Doom where you get clues about possible allies from the layout and elements of the map.

I do recognize the utility value of the tile-built maps for those that prefer to use tiles, and I also fully recognize that the utility may far outweigh aesthetic considerations for some people. Again, it's just a matter of taste.

Well said! I would have given XP, but I can't... could someone please cover me?

It appears we are alike in wanting aesthetic, exciting maps; I, too, recognise the value of dungeon tiles for a busy DM/GM. I use them most often when the PCs stumble into an improvised/unexpected encounter, or when I haven't had time to do all the encounter maps myself. I love them dearly, and sometimes I spend a lot of time trying to create some sort of... uh, more coherent, fun-looking and less "square-y" map with my tiles (I utilize smaller tiles a lot for this purpose, and fortunately I have quite a many sets). As a DM maps mean so much to me that I usually redraw at least some parts of them to suit my group's taste and sense of what looks like an "exciting" map.

As a player, I find the repetion of the same tiles boring; it's another thing if the DM says "Look, guys, I only have X tiles and we'll be using them as a rough abstraction of the encounter areas -- however, the 'real' layout of the rooms in on your grid map". But if the DM just keeps using the tiles time after time and doesn't even try to use variations of layouts (even on the "accurate" map our PCs are drawing), I'll become irritated and bored. Eventually it breaks my sense of disbelief. A certain sense of "realism" (i.e. monsters do not live inside a dungeon without food/water sources, or forge weird and unexplained alliances just because it would make a "cool" encounter etc.) is what I always expect out of the games I play in, but I also expect that the maps make me *want* to explore them. Some people will certainly disagree with me, and some don't just care, but I take maps seriously, and to me they add another layer of excitement to my hobby.

 

[zoroaster100]

I use the Dungeon Tiles for wilderness encounters in my game, so I for one am glad to see them used for tactical encounters. I'd like to see new maps for special encounter areas that need them, for unique locations, but for a clearing in a forest or such, why not use the tiles? Unless I have a means to easily represent it on the game table, the encounter map is only for me as the DM and doesn't help the players enjoy the game. I'd rather they include some art that shows key interesting encounter areas instead of new maps that are hard to replicate on the game table.