Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

[bwgwl]

i wouldn't mind seeing Poly separated from Dungeon -- it'd mean i could get the d20 mini-games i want without having to buy a bunch of useless adventures i'll never use.

however, i just don't think that's going to happen. i don't think either is quite strong enough to stand on it's own, so that's why we've got the split-issue thing going on right now.

 

[beta-ray]

I remember when I was in intermediate school and being really into collecting comics. So much so I'd bad them and not want people to touch them. I would buy multiple copies, etc.

One day I realized that I really loved comics for what fun they brought me. Nowadays it might horrify people but I just toss around all the comics I buy. I love to read them and they entertain me but I don't really put them on a pedestal anymore.

Some of the responses here remind me of those days when I took comics too seriously. I buy the gaming stuff (whether I use them or not) to entertain me. If it doesn't, so be it. There seems to be some wounded feelings from people who have somehow been hurt. Frankly I don't see any of the Paizo represented responses as condescending (then again, I am one of those that have no use for Dungeon but like Poly)... Is it really worth the bulging vein in the neck?

*shrug*

 

[Maggan]

Come GenCon...

This statement to me implies two things:

1) The magazine may cease to be published prior to, or aproximately coinciding with, Origins/GenCon due to continued poor sales; and/or

2) Opinions expressed by readers and members of messageboards will not be considered as valuable or desirable harbingers of change; only "elite" attendees of the aforementioned conventions (a tiny but vocal minority of gamers to be sure) may suggest changes to the magazine and have them be considered. If this is the case, it certainly sounds aliennating to the majority of the readership, to put it lightly. I, for one, was offended by his (admittedly perceived) arrogance and dismissive attitude towards criticism of his publication and his company's failure to give the readership what it wants, let alone reassure us that our opinions matter and positive change is indeed in the works.

Or it might mean that Paizo has a plan that says it needs to get Dungeon/Polyhedron financially viable fast, or their money runs out, and they have to stop publishing Dungeon. And that the time frame is to try up until GenCon to see if it works.

Why set GenCon as a milestone? Maybe, just maybe, it is because they will be going there with thousands and thousands of other gamers, and would like to also talk to people face to face when discussing the fate of Dungeon, rather than just through a message board.

I don't feel that he implied that they only talk to the "elite" by discussiong this at GenCon.

I got the feeling he actually likes to talk to people, and hear what they are saying in an open and massively interactive 3d environment (GenCon), in addition to reading stuff on the boards. Since he posted here, he is obviously reading what is being posted here. So what's so bad about discussing things at GenCon?

On a sidenote, Chris Thommassen got slammed by someone for posting here, and Johnny Wilson gets a lot of grief (admittedly, he can be a bit... enthusiastic), so it's not as if all of us are making them feel welcome here. There eill probably be less of that at GenCon, since most people (including me) are more civil when off the internet.

As to my opinions on Dungeon/Polyhedron:

1. I don't like the flip side thing.
2. I would like to see Dungeon and Polyhedron as separate magazines.
3. That thing about subscribers getting more content... I don't like it (but of course, it worked, because I just subscribed again. Still don't like it)
4. That new comic... I don't like it. I don't like Bolt&Quiver either.
5. Like the layout.
6. Like the adventures.
7. Find the minigames interesting, although not uselful more than once in a blue moon.

That's about it.

Cheers!

M.

 

[Sketchpad]

I'm part of the rare encampment of using both Dungeon & Poly ... and honestly I don't completely know where all the aggression is coming from. Are we getting adventures? Yup. Are we getting extra info for other games? Yup. Now I can hear it already "I only care about D&D" and that's great But, first off, the magazine isn't made for just D&D. Secondly, we get D&D every month now ... which is better than waiting every other month. Sure, it's less content every other month, but in some ways, how's that different then what we had before? I mean, honestly gang, if you want a magazine bi-monthly that concentrates on D&D, just buy the mag every other month.
I love the new format personally. The extra d20 Modern info and Star Wars info is great! I've been hoping they'd do something to support the Star Wars game more since Star Wars Gamer bit the dust, and finally I got some And the funny thing is, I know I'm not alone in this. I realize that the bulk of the people here are strictly D&D players, but to be honest folks, there are more players out there ... and Dragon is all D&D.
For those long-time collectors, perhaps you remember Dragon's Ares section? It used to have sci-fi/superhero rules in it ... and people didn't complain about that ... in fact, there were some issues that gulped up a horde of the magazine with lilttle D&D content ... and people didn't complain about that either
I commend Chris & Johnny for giving us the info and responding to a thread about their great magazine. And as far as the art heavy content of Dungeon, and Dragon for that matter, I love it. Speaking as a Graphic Designer, I find the layout and graphics to be appealing and interesting, giving the magazine a unique feel. Sure, Dungeon & Dragon aren't Time or Newsweek ... but in some ways they are ... they're the lead trade magazines for the role-playing community. For many years they've been an example and showcase for other companies, indie writers and freelance artists. That's something that shouldn't be forgotten easily

 

[am181d]

I'm a POLYHEDRON reader. I never bought an issue of DUNGEON before they added POLY, and have no intention of buying a DUNGEON without POLY. I am, it seems pretty clearly, in the minority, but I'm presumably not alone either.

 

[UniversalMonster]

What I wouldn't mind (yeah, yeah, like you care. )

I wouldn't mind if Polyhedron became a reader-supported contribution-based web-feature pdf thingy. Polyhedron is always interesting, but I don't really use it. And I'm an RPGA guy. I'd like Polyhedron to feature more OGC from established third party publishers. I'd like to see Oathbound articles from Bastion, for example, and maybe a "Fiend-Lair of the Month" from Green Ronin, and something weird from Mongoose.

I wouldn't mind if Dungeon dropped the slick paper and color illustration interiors. If this just barely covered costs, than fine. If this somehow more than covered costs, then I'd like more adventures stuffed in there. And I wouldn't mind more "old school" modules either.. just plain maps and a keyed matrix like the old dungeon modules (B1, B2, U1). Yeah, I know it's primitive, but I've been in serious retro mode lately. I want to see more Castle Greyhawk (100+ levels of keyed maps) and Blackmoor type dungeons, rather than the 1-2 session adventures featured in most modern d20 adventures.

Alright. Have to go take my kids to the doctor.

 

[Maggan]

Re: Suggestions, nto just criticism

Suggestion #2: With this in mind, the first thing that ought to go - at least in Dungeon - is full color. As gamers, we don't expect much outside of the core rulebooks to be done in color. It's a nice bonus, but we're used to B&W. We don't feel ripped off by it. If you feel like the maps deserve color, maybe put them in an insert section - I prefer clean, uncluttered B&W maps, myself, but I know some people prefer color with lots of flash (and thereby cluttered, IMO). But the maps are a neutral decision, IMO. Color or BW are fine with me. But the rest of the magazine doesn't need it - I don't pick up Module X from Company Y and expect a full-color interior. This alone will drop costs immensely.

Great suggestions! But the one about color, I must contend. A black&white Dungeon would most certainly die on the newsstand, in a world where color is king.

For most magazine buyers (and gamers) color is perceived as an indication of quality, and even though Dungeon is not a magazine to you, it is to the channel where it is distirbuted, and to the customers that pick it up at those channels.

And I think moving to B&W interrior would kill Dungeon as a magazine. As if it aint a magazine, it might lose the distribution channel, and therefore a lot of sales.

At least that's what I think would happen, with nothing but experience from similar experiments in Sweden in the rpg area and in comics.

My suggestion is to lose the inserts/pullouts. That would save some money, and I would not miss them one bit.

Cheers!

M.

 

[Ravellion]

I love Dungeon and find Polyhedron amusing, but altogether usless. I don't buy a magazine to finance a d20 publicity stunt. Some games are interesting though, and might give them a one shot. The disillusionment that Issue #99 brought upon me ("I only get this one adventure, which is basically 4 critical threats patched together.") made Dungeon from a "The new Dungeon is here, let's get that!", to "The new Dungeon is here... what is in it exactly?".

This is most likely going to sell them a few less magazines. I thought about subscribing but I move around a lot and the problems with European subscribers in the past make me weary.

Besides, the cost of the Magazine is for me something like $10-11 USD. I can easily get a published adventure for that, without adverts cutting the adventure up and usually slightly more pages as well (compared to issue 99)... The paper and printing quality can be nice (I like maps and illustrations to my adventures), but if there is only one adventure in Dungeon which is less than 32 pages... you have lost a sale... the value for money is jsut not there unless the polyhedron side is very appealing to me.

I also don't understand the mechanics of the subscriber bonus adventure. It takes time and money to get the adventures up to standard, and then you don't give it to a large part of your buying public! What a waste of hard work for what is basically meant as something to make subscribers feel better! You make subscribers feel better by giving them a good magazine, and perhaps a promotional freebie every now and then. If this is a permanent thing (1 adventure every odd numbered issue, 2 if you subscribe), with the motivation to make me subscribe, it has failed. Instead it makes me antagonistic.

Johnny Wilson seems to be a very capable financial manager, with a good sense of business economics and a heart for the magazines. However, he seems to be lacking in the marketing department, and should probably get someone else to do the PR as well, as his writing style is considered to be offensive by many, including me... even though I know (or assume at least) he doesn't mean to offend.

I'll surely buy Issue 100 as it arrives here, but 101 will be given a miss if it is one adventure only.

Rav

 

[Ghostwind]

Something I don't believe anyone has addressed is the fact that those complaining here may very well be in the minority of the big picture, which is something we will never know for sure. The fact of the matter is that internet-based comments or reviews have been statistically shown to have no effect or very little effect on overall sales. It would take something on a bigger scale (such as a massive letter campaign) to cause a shift in policy.

Paizo clearly has a business plan concerning Dungeon and whether that plan is successful remains to be seen. From the sounds of Mr. Wilson's post, the business viability of Dungeon may very well be in question. While I do not have access to subscription numbers, it sounds like Dragon is clearly an overwhelming leader in subscriptions and that Paizo may very well be looking at discontinuing Dungeon to use that money towards Dragon and its operations. From a business standpoint, this makes good economic sense. If you are loosing money, cut your losses and focus on the one that is making money.

I, personally, get limited use out of Dungeon. Due to limited playing time, it typically gets scanned and thrown on the shelf to be mined for ideas at a later date when I might get more time to play. Truth be told, if it was gone, I wouldn't miss it. There are plenty of other resources at my command, including my own skills.

Perhaps instead of being extremely critical of either Dungeon or Polyhedron, one should consider what it would be like if both magazines were merged with Dragon. Consider the idea of having two or three adventures included in every issue of Dragon with the typical Polyhedron content appearing every three months. Increase the page count size of Dragon, raise the price a bit to allow for the increased printing costs, go back to black & white printing rather than full color and suddenly you've got the best of everything rolled into one magazine. Economically, this may be a direction that Paizo should consider in an effort to calm the masses and find a compromise that works (mostly) everyone.

 

[Magestrike]

Agree with Sigil...yet again

I always seem to chime in after Sigil and agree with what he has to say. But then again, when he has good ideas, I just have to.

A friend of mine the other day before our regular D&D session said he picked up the latest issue of Dungeon magazine, because he hadnt bought one in a while. After reading through it, he didnt think very highly of it to say the least. The biggest issue he had with it goes along with something that Sigil said, and I think honestly is a huge issue. Why is it color in the first place?

Like my friend said, "back in the day" Dungeon was B&W, fairly thick, and contained lots and lots of really great stuff that could be used as is, or tweaked or just plain gutted and used by DMs everywhere. It was easy to make notes in, either directly in the adventures or in the margins, because of the paper it was printed on. There wasnt a lot of flash and glitz, but there didnt need to be. It was purely a venue for DMs to grab great adventures or ideas from, at an affordable price. Why exactly did it ever change from that format?

I dunno..maybe I and my friends are just jaded or mixed up or something. But it seems to me that if you are going to publish a magazine thats primary goal is to provide ideas and adventures to DMs and players, shouldnt this be done in such a way that it is actually able to be used by those players and DMs, and include the most "bang for the buck". It just seems that it has gotten away from the core mission it has always had.

Just my two cents though, for what its worth.

Thank you.

Mage