Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

I have to drop a quick comment here in support of the new format. I like both Dungeon and Poly now. My favorite parts are the d20 Mini-Games but I also get plenty of use from the adventures. I would much rather see it continue in it's current state than see one or the other disappear. Keep up the good work Paizo. Not everyone hates the new direction. :)
 

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Olive said:


Add me to the list of slightly irritated people on that matter...

And me as well. I try very hard to support my local game store instead of buying a subscription. Now there is some Dungeon content I can't buy even though I want to. Bad move Paizo. I like the new format but don't leave non-subscribers out any more.
 

Re: my views

RichGreen said:
Hi,

The Dodgy Stuff

- Downer, Bolt & Quiver -- not funny. Downer also takes up 2 or 3 pages that could be used for something else.

1. Get rid of Downer & use the pages for something else (see Good Stuff above)

Richard

I have to agree strongly here. I have never really liked cartoons (or fiction) in Dungeon (or Dragon). With Dungeon in such a tight spot I definitely think they should go away to help make space for more game-able content.
 

My suggestions:

- For the newsstand (non-subscription issues), get rid of the Polyhedron flip side cover. Sell that as ad space. Save the money that would have been spent on the cover artwork.
- If posters and counters cost alot of extra money, limit them to every-other month, or even 4 times a year (or less if neccessary).

A typical year of Dungeon/Polyhedron:

Dungeon Magazine/ Polyhedron
116 pages (same as issue #99)
$6.99

SCHEDULE:
Jan
Feb Poly web-enhancement
Mar
Apr Poly Mini-game / Dungeon web-enhancement
May
Jun Poly web-enhancement
Jul
Aug Poly Mini-game / Dungeon web-enhancement
Sep
Oct Poly web-enhancement
Nov
Dec Poly Mini-game / Dungeon web-enhancement

--Dungeon - Regular Features = Editorial, Adventures, Side Trecks, Critical Threats, Maps of Mystery, Agents & Allies.
[*Note: limit "Prison Mail" to 1 page, get rid of it altogether, or have it be a monthly website-only feature. Limit the "Previews" section to a side-bar on the editorial page.]

--Polyhedron - Regular Features = Living Greyhawk, D20 news, Release Roundup [*this could be relegated to a monthly web-based article, or eliminated altogether], one page of comics ("Downer"), one or two short articles (covering D20 Modern, or a previous Mini-game).

Page Breakdown: Usually Dungeon= 106 pgs. / Poly 10 pgs.
Page counts could vary for Polyhedron from issue to issue from 1 to 5 pages. Dungeon should never drop below 100 pgs. per issue except on the Apr, Aug, Dec "Mini-game" issues.


JANUARY - 116 Pages
--Dungeon(106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (10 pages) Regular Features.

FEBRUARY - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (103 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (13 pages) Regular Features. [Bonus Web-enhancement for a previous Mini-game on website]

MARCH - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (10 pages) Regular Features.

APRIL - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (84 pages) Regular Features. [BONUS Dungeon Adventure available for download on website]
--Polyhedron (32 pages) Mini Game, some regular features in abreviated form (space permitting).

MAY - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (10 pages) Regular Features.

JUNE - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (103 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (13 pages) Regular Features. [BONUS web-enhancement for a previous Mini-Game on website]

JULY - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (10 pages) Regular Features.

AUG - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (84 pages) Regular Features. [BONUS Dungeon Adventure available on website].
--Polyhedron (32 pages) Mini-Game, some regular features in abreviated form (space permitting)

SEPTEMBER - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (10 pages) Regular Features.

OCTOBER - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (103 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (13 pages) Regular Features. [Bouns web-enhancement for a previous Mini-game on webite]

NOVEMBER - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (106 pages) Regular Features.
--Polyhedron (103 pages) Regular Features.

DECEMBER - 116 Pages
--Dungeon (84 pages) Regular Features. [Bonus Dungeon Adventure available on website]
--Polyhedron (32 pages) Mini-game, some regular features in abreviated form (space permitting)

I believe that this would please the majority of readers. IMO, most want more Dungeon & less Poly.
The Polyhedron fans would still get 3 full Mini-Games a year, 3 web-enhancements for the Mini-games, and support articles thru the year.
The Dungeon fans would get an acceptible majority of the content almost every issue, and a free web-enhancement adventure on each of the three months where Polyhedron jumps to 32 pages.
The web-enhancement adventures could later be published in a Dungeon Annual (free to subscribers), or a select few could be put into Dragon Magazine. (Just reduce the "Scale Mail", "Previews", and do without the fiction for that issue, there should be plenty of room.) It would give Dragon readers who dont buy Dungeon a chance to see what they are missing, and Dungeon readers a chance to get a nice print copy of the adventure if they so choose.

I look at Dungeon mag & Dragon mag both as "niche" magazines, and I expect to pay a little higher price for them because they do not appeal to the masses. Dungeon more so than Dragon. I think $6.99 is a good price. $7.99 may be just a little too much for many people.
Maybe offer a REALLY good subscription deal for people who subscribe to BOTH Dungeon and Dragon mags. Altrnately, offer some 6 issue subscriptions to Dungeon, the same way you did for Dragon, for people who want to test it out.

Thomas
 

I'll be damned

I'll be damned. That sounds like . . . . .a compromise. Increase Dungeon to something even resembling what it was with 4-5 adventures per issue? Leave in Poly, whatever, don't care. Poly is o.k., but not really interested in it. I'll live with it.

_________________________________________
--Dungeon - Regular Features = Editorial, Adventures, Side Trecks, Critical Threats, Maps of Mystery, Agents & Allies.
______________________________________________

I could really do without Critical Threats and Agents and Allies. To me it's just so much slop and takes room away from adventures. Stuff like that is in Dragon, not Dungeon.



______________________________________________
The Dungeon fans would get an acceptible majority of the content almost every issue, and a free web-enhancement adventure on each of the three months where Polyhedron jumps to 32 pages.
The web-enhancement adventures could later be published in a Dungeon Annual (free to subscribers), or a select few could be put into Dragon Magazine.
_____________________________________________

Do this and you can have my money back.
 

Re

Is Johnny Wilson serious?

Dungeon magazine doesn't stand on its own two feet? I love this magazine. I don't even give Polyhedron a second look. I just grumble and ignore the magazine. I didn't think many people at all played those stupid mini-games or cared about anything other than the adventures.

I find it hard to believe that Dungeon doesn't sell much better than Polyhedron. I really do. I would love to hear the numbers on sales for both magazines. I was always of the opinion that they added Polyhedron to Dungeon to save the magazine from cancellation because someone at the publishers liked it.
 

Folks,

We at Paizo are reading this thread with great interest, and are very interested in coming up with some kind of solution that pleases the greatest number of people. Despite Johnny's comment regarding waiting until Gen Con to get feedback, Dungeon Editor Chris Thomasson and I are reading this thread every day, and undoubtedly some of the things said here will work their way into our thinking for the magazine's immediate future.

So don't worry about Paizo catering only to the "convention elite," or whatever the charge was back on page 3. Johnny's a publisher, and has all sorts of publisher tasks to keep him busy until the summer. Chris and I are the ones who make the magazine happen, and we're definitely listening.

Well, ok, I admit that I'm no longer listening to posts that start "flush Polyhedron down the toilet" or "I hate the worthless Polyhedron," but I'm sure Chris has got those posts covered, and I'd like to think I've absorbed the gist of those opinions.

In the interest of keeping this thread as constructive as possible, I'd like to mention a number of things that people may or may not know, to give you some idea of the limitations we're under and what we can do to make sure that both Dungeon and Polyhedron survive for a long time to come.

1) "Make it black and white!" This is _not_ going to happen, as much as it would please many of our readers. We understand why some of you would prefer uncoated paper (for easy margin scribbling) and black and white maps (for easy copying). But it's not going to happen for two reasons. Color interiors make for greater newsstand "lift," which is to say color gets us more impulse buys at the newsstand--buys that we need in order for the magazine to be successful. Also, as someone noted earlier in this thread, advertisers won't give the time of day to a black and white magazine. But why do we want ads in our magazine? Isn't that part of the problem, you say?

2) "Lower ad pages." I get a sense, from reading this thread, that some of you look at ad pages as an intrusion on your gaming "product," and that the magazine would be better off without them. While I agree with you from an asthetic point of view, Dungeon/Polyhedron (like nearly all magazines) _needs_ ads to survive. Generally, the fewer ads a magazine has, the less healthy it is. Take a look at InStyle or Maxim. Those magazines are LOADED with ads (and much more lucrative ads than the likes we get), and actually have fewer content pages than ad pages. That's actually quite standard in the magazine industry.

Now, I'm not saying that we want the magazines to be so dominated by ads that the ads choke out the content, but we would be very happy with more ads in the magazine, because it would mean the company (and hence the magazines we publish) are healthy and strong. When that happens, we can pay our writers and artists better, can get more staffers to produce more pages, etc., etc., etc. Our current assumption accounts for about 15 pages of ads per issue. If we get more than that, we often will add pages to the magazine, so those pages don't often crowd out "content," so to speak.

3) "Put Poly on the Web!" While the Internet is a great tool, it's not yet a viable publishing venue for a magazine of our type. This is not going to happen. If Poly gets pulled from Dungeon, it will be to give it its own magazine or to kill it.

Lastly, it's been said numerous times, but it must be said again. The reason WotC merged Dungeon and Polyhedron was that _neither_ magazine was particularly healthy, and our publisher (Johnny Wilson) believed that by combining the magazines, both together would appeal to a wider audience than either alone. So "killing" Poly or Dungeon isn't a great answer, because we'd be cutting loose a big audience either way. The magazines' numbers improved when we combined them, and got better when we raised the price to $7.99 a few months ago.

Paizo's managment decided to speed up the magazine's production in order to bring in a more constant flow of revenue. In the bizarre world of magazine distrubution, it's better to be a monthly than a bimonthly publisher, because it's easier to cover distribution costs with the former than with the latter.

From my personal point of view, it appears as though the move to a monthly magazine may have been a mistake, especially when the Poly content outpaces the Dungeon content and especially when the Dungeon side only has one adventure. I'm not yet sure how we go about "fixing" the problem to make long-time Dungeon readers content without utterly shafting Polyhedron fans (and make no mistake, suggestions that Poly becomes a 10-page section or a web enhancement do exactly that), but it's something that'll occupy a large amount of our time over the next few months.

It's my hope that we have some kind of solution by Gen Con, when Johnny throws the question to the audience. Monitoring this thread is a great way to get suggestions that might get us closer to our goal, so I'd like to thank everyone who has posted constructive advice here. We're definitely listening, and we'll be listening in the weeks and months to come.

Thanks,

Erik
 

Thank You, Erik, for taking the time and responding to our concerns in a clear, concise, and in my mind, a more civil manner and tone than that taken earlier.

I think that many of us who don't like Poly are not necessarily clamoring for it to go away, but don't want to see content in Dungeon sacrificed for the sake of getting a "balanced" mix. IMO, the bottom line here is that many of us have relied on Dungeon for a nice mixture of differing adventures. When the content is cut from typically 3-4 adventures per issue to 1 or 2, we express our dissatisfaction. To have said dissatisfaction summarily ignored (at least that's how many have taken Johnny's comments) just adds insult to injury.

I'm perfectly fine with a 'flippy' between Dungeon/Poly if that's what has to be done. What I'm not fine with is paying $7.99 per issue for a magazine that, at most, is going to give me 1-2 adventures with the other 40-60% devoted to content I will never use. This is not to disparage others who do, merely to point out that many (per what I see as a majority of the posts) see it as I do.

Having climbed on my soapbox about it, I'll say this. Heed your customers. Praise upon praise has been heaped upon you for the contents of #100. If all issues were of like this, I doubt you would hear anywhere near the number of complaints that have been raised so far. This just proves that Paizo is capable of such great stuff.

Number 99, however, again IMO, was complete and utter crap. One adventure (2 for subscribers if you count 16 pages as a decent adventure) is just not worth $7.99 to me. I had every intention of writing in to the Editor on it, but came across this posting and chose to air my grievances here.

Keep up the good work, please don't put out content of the caliber of #99, use #100 as a guide to a good mix for your readers.

Once again, my 2cp, which, at the rate I've been tossing them about, is about to break me.

--Dan
 

Thanks Erik for that great reply. I would like to respond to the three points you made.

1. B&W vs. Color: While many like the old B&W days and for notation and copying purposes would like to return to that, others like myself were looking at cost savings alternatives. If this won't offset enough for lost sales then its fine with me if you don't do it.

2. Fewer ads: I can only remember 1 request for fewer ads. While I certainly prefer fewer ads I understand that you need the ads. So as you said if they don't reduce content put in as many as you can sell. If they don't reduce content as far as I am concearned 50%-70% ads is fine with me, just please don't break up individual articles/adventures any more than is Absolutely neccesary.

3. Reducing Poly: While I am one of those who personaly dosn't care for the current Poly I am not neccesarily opposed to it. As a Dungeon supporter though I don't like it when the magazine is 60% Poly and there is only 1 adventure. While 10 pages may be to small does it realy need 100 every other month combined when it used to have 40. I think part of the Dungeon outrage is that for Dungeon readers all that we got was a price hike while Poly was getting massive more amounts of space.

My biggest issue with Poly not being useful to me are the mini-games I will NEVER use (Hijinks, cough). The Living Greyhawk Journal I found interesting and useful in Dragon and inclusion of Star Wars, WoT and CoC material could also be fun to read on a regular basis, as they don't get coverage elsewhere. Are there realy enough ideas for 6 mini-games a year though or could we get by with only maybe 2.
 

Well, now that Erik has made clear that writing something her is not futile...

Over the past few days I have talked to several friends and fellow players about the whole Dragon/Dungeon thing. The conclusion was, so far, that Dungeon has -at least for a majority of the people I talked to, myself included- become less helpful and thus less worth buying.

First of all, I really have to praise the magazine for providing invaluable aid over the close to 3 years spent DMing a 3E campaign.
Many adventures out of Dungeon have actually folded out into a full campaign, and since the player's keep coming back, I guess that speaks for itself.

However, great as Dungeon is, one very important thing is the fact that I always bought Dungeon because of the adventures. Nothing else. I am not in favor of critical threats, as any decent DM can work those out rather quickly, nor am I particularly fond of the new comics (and not even the new standard D&D layout...).
I do not have much use for Poly, but it's a fun read now and then, and I wouldn't mind if it was there, if only it's presence would not substract from the quality of Dungeon.

The Adventure Path certainly was a great idea. The two adventures available are superb, and I started a whole new campaign just to run "Life's Bazaar".

However, that is not going to make me buy each and every issue of Dungeon - something I used to do a while back.

But then I really got something out of it. I was even close to subscribing (and I am from Europe, if that does say anything), but the drastically reduced amount in quantity kept me from doing so.
Subscribing would perhaps save me 10 bucks a year, but then again, if I don't subscribe, at least I don't have to pay for something I don't want.

And as I pointed out above, I know quite a few people who feel the same.

Daeinar
 
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