D&D 5E Dungeon Crawl Rules

[pming]

Hiya!

I guess a specific which has always tripped me up is the difference between Perception and Investigation. If feels like both should find a secret door or a trap but Perception should be quick with a high DC and investigation take time with a low DC. I guess I’m looking for things around that.

For me, I run it as...

"Perception" - "You notice a distinct lack of dust in the corner of the wall and floor, about 10' away from the corner you just turned. Looking a bit closer, you're pretty sure there's some sort of secret door here..."
..
"Investigation" = "Walking up to the area of the wall that Bella pointed out, you see the same thing. After a few minutes of tapping stones, pushing, pulling and other investigatory actions, you find a flagstone that presses down, releasing the latch on the secret door with a distinct 'click'".
..
In short...Perception lets you notice "the thing", but Investigation lets you utilize said "thing" (secret door, trap, unsafe section of corridor, etc).
..
Sometimes it makes sense to interchange these, which is fine.
..
But, as a baseline:
Perception = Notice
Investigation = Overcome.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Talltomwright]

All these years and I'd never noticed the detail about secret doors in the DM's Guide - thank you all! (Face palms) Much clearer now.

This is the basic procedure that I use as a guide for players in my D&D 5e games:

Dungeon Exploration
When you decide to stop traveling and explore a given area, the exploration phase begins. An area of 1000 square feet or smaller can be explored in 10 minutes. Use the Exploration Area asset to indicate the area being searched. You stay within this area during the exploration.

Goal & Approach
After the DM describes the environment, you describe what you try to do for the next 10 minutes with reasonably specificity. Common tasks might include, but are not limited to the below. The associated ability score may be commonly relevant to any ability checks made to resolve an outcome for the task (if there is an ability check at all).

• Check for Traps & Hazards (Wis)
  • Figure Out a Trap or Hazard (Int)
    • Disable a Trap (Dex)
• Forage/Loot (Wis)
• Keep Watch (Wis)
• Perform a Ritual
• Pick a Lock (Dex)
• Search for Secret Doors (Wis)
  • Figure Out a Secret Door (Int)

A task that is dependent upon another task being completed cannot usually be completed in the same round of exploration. (These are the indented tasks in the above list.)

Working Together
Instead of performing a task by yourself, you can work together with someone else. By working together, you can grant advantage to the character leading the effort. You can only provide help if the task is one that you could attempt alone and when working together would actually be productive.

Wandering Monsters
At the end of the 10 minutes of exploration, the DM rolls for a wandering monster. The roll is made with advantage if noise was made during the exploration. If a stealthy wandering monster is indicated, any character that was not keeping watch is automatically surprised.

Ooh - that's super clear - thank you!

 

[iserith]

All these years and I'd never noticed the detail about secret doors in the DM's Guide - thank you all! (Face palms) Much clearer now.

Ooh - that's super clear - thank you!

Don't sweat it. Nobody reads the DMG anyway.

 

[Flamestrike]

I guess a specific which has always tripped me up is the difference between Perception and Investigation. If feels like both should find a secret door or a trap but Perception should be quick with a high DC and investigation take time with a low DC. I guess I’m looking for things around that.

I've mulled over using Investigation as active Perception. If you want to look for something (i.e. investigate), this is the Skill you use.

I then reduce the Perception skill to only be used to determine Passive perception. What you notice when you're not actively looking for anything (secret doors, enemies trying to hide from you etc). It's never rolled for; it simply sets your Passive perception value.

A PC with a Passive perception of 15 walks past a DC 16 Secret door wont notice it. If he stops and examines the wall (i.e. he Investigates it) he gets to roll (as an Action) the Investigation skill, and might notice the strange outline that indicates it is most likely a secret door.

Gives both skills uses, and devalues Perception (the most used skill in the game) while also making Investigation (which uses Intelligence - the most dumped Stat in the game) much more useful.

Logic wise, you might subconsciously notice something, but it might not strike you as out of the ordinary. This reflects that phenomenon.

 

[Talltomwright]

That totally works for balance (and also makes linguistic sense!)

 

[Mistwell]

The other common split I have seen is: if the thing is (nominally) actively using a skill to hide, it is Perception. If it is a static thing with no skill, and a set DC to notice it, you may use Investigation.

This is closer to how we use it. If my PC says I search this object, it's investigation. If a monster is hiding down the hallway, it's perception. Anything which is actively hiding is perception, and most things which are fixed (like a secret door, a trap, or noticing clues in a painting) is investigation.

 

[Charlaquin]

I guess a specific which has always tripped me up is the difference between Perception and Investigation. If feels like both should find a secret door or a trap but Perception should be quick with a high DC and investigation take time with a low DC. I guess I’m looking for things around that.

The rules are a little unclear about the Perception/Investigation split, but taking all of the advice on using them holistically, I believe the intent is that Wisdom (Perception) is for sensory information, e.g. “there is a draft in here” and Intelligence (Investigation) is for making deductions based on available information , e.g. “the draft indicates the presence of a secret door.” Perception is the “what,” Investigation is the “so what.”

 

[Umbran]

This is closer to how we use it. If my PC says I search this object, it's investigation. If a monster is hiding down the hallway, it's perception. Anything which is actively hiding is perception, and most things which are fixed (like a secret door, a trap, or noticing clues in a painting) is investigation.

Yeah. For us, it allows the artificer, for example, to have a super-high passive investigation score, and the narrative is simply that there is virtually no trap, door, or device that he doesn't notice just offhand, because he knows huge amounts about how things are made and immediately understands telltale signs. But a goblin can still jump from behind a rock and surprise him.

The rules are a little unclear about the Perception/Investigation split, but taking all of the advice on using them holistically, I believe the intent is that Wisdom (Perception) is for sensory information, e.g. “there is a draft in here” and Intelligence (Investigation) is for making deductions based on available information , e.g. “the draft indicates the presence of a secret door.” Perception is the “what,” Investigation is the “so what.”

That, unfortunately, leads to needing to roll two skill checks to find a thing. And, unless you have invested high stats in both Int and Wis, and paid for proficiency in both skills, it becomes worse than "roll at disadvantage" to find anything. That doesn't sound fair.

 

[tetrasodium]

Don't sweat it. Nobody reads the DMG anyway.

I've read 4 versions of it (2e, 3.5, pathfinder, 5e)

 

[iserith]

That, unfortunately, leads to needing to roll two skill checks to find a thing. And, unless you have invested high stats in both Int and Wis, and paid for proficiency in both skills, it becomes worst that "roll at disadvantage" to find anything. That doesn't sound fair.

In practice, it's two characters (one with higher INT and perhaps proficiency and the other with higher WIS and perhaps proficiency) with advantage from another PC working together with them to impart advantage. So you're making 0 to 2 checks to find and figure out how to operate a secret door, both at advantage, and 0 to 3 checks to find, figure out, and disable a trap with potentially two of those checks at advantage (find and figure out). Maybe even three of those checks at advantage if someone else in the party has proficiency with thieves' tools which happens due to background sometimes.

So yeah, if you completely ignore that there is more than one person doing these tasks, then maybe it's a bit unfair. But that's not what happens at the table. There's a team there.