Dungeon Delver and Darkvision?

[tylermalan]

By magic.

Either way, the character still has darkvision.

 

[MarkB]

Either way, the character still has darkvision.

No, the goggles have it, the character just uses it. I don't think it's reasonable to interpret the PrC as applying to anything but innate, biological darkvision.

 

[tylermalan]

No, the goggles have it, the character just uses it. I don't think it's reasonable to interpret the PrC as applying to anything but innate, biological darkvision.

If the character is using it, then the character has it. The goggles give it to the character when they put them on. The goggles, as an inanimate object, don't have darkvision - they have the capability to give it to a character who puts them on.

On another note, So, you're saying that what the character is is based on race, and nothing else? That doesn't seem right to say that, and then acknowledge that the Dungeon Delver Prestige Class (not race) gives darkvision, and if given by this class, then the character has it.

 

[Kurashu]

So if I use night vision googles I HAVE night vision? That's just silly logic.

A character is his race and class and any innate abilities gained through that class. His items and spells are just tools used to further his gains, not the character itself.

 

[tylermalan]

So if I use night vision googles I HAVE night vision? That's just silly logic.

Yes, you do, while wearing them. I'll reword that question so it sounds like what I think you're saying:

"So if I can see in the dark, then I CAN see in the dark? That's just silly logic."

What?

If you're using your capability to see in the dark, then you must HAVE the capability to see in the dark. If you didn't, you couldn't use it, regardless of the source of that capability.

If I use my arms to pick something up, then I have the capability, even if the arms are prosthetic. Just because I wasn't born with the ability to do it doesn't mean its not a part of who I am. Related, if someone gets a chip implanted in their brain that allows them to interact with computer systems without any other peripheral, would you say that that person can't do that? That its the chip that's doing it, and not the person? It would seem that the person is doing it by virtue of the chip, which means the person CAN do it by virtue of the chip, they HAVE the capability, which means that a person with night vision goggles can see in the dark (that's the person can see in the dark, not the goggles).

 

[Kurashu]

By your logic, if I have a scroll of Invisibility and a scroll of Aid and a decent UMD score, I can enter the Mystic Theurge class.

 

[tylermalan]

By your logic, if I have a scroll of Invisibility and a scroll of Aid and a decent UMD score, I can enter the Mystic Theurge class.

Depends, as per the following:

Any sort of RAW argument is going to revolve around if "already has darkvision" is a one time check, or if it is part of the constant ability granted.

If the requirements for entering a prestige class are literally constantly being checked, then if you have those scrolls, you only meet the prereqs while you have them. If you lose them, you no longer meet the prereqs, and would no longer qualify for the PrC. Same as having Goggles that grant darkvision, taking a level of DD, then subsequently losing the Goggles.

But, in this case, I would likely rule that just having the Scrolls doesn't mean you meet the prereqs. The difference between the goggles and the scrolls is that while wearing the goggles (using them), the effect is constant. Casting Aid is not, its a one time effect with a duration less than forever. So, I would rule that when you're USING the scrolls, casting the spells, you meet the prereqs for the PrC. Since you can't cast one in anticipation of levelling up, it would mean that you couldn't meet the prereqs for Mystic Theurge.

If you tell me you can fly, therefore you must be Superman, I would say prove it. Then, if you take off, you meet that prereq for being Superman. If you don't, then you don't meet the prereqs, and therefore aren't Superman. Regardless of whether or not you CAN fly, but just aren't proving it RIGHT NOW is irrelevant in terms used by the Dungeon Delver.

 

[Kurashu]

I still say it's silly logic to say that when you using googles of darkvision, you as a biological being possess the innate ability (innate ability here meaning an ability coming from your race and class) of darkvision. But you can't enter the Mystic Theurge class by keeping a bunch of scrolls of arcane and divine spells and keeping up your UMD score. Let's change the scolls to a Ring of Continual Aid and a Ring of Continual Invisibility (ignoring the fact these shouldn't exist), now does one meet the Prereqs for MT?

As for your superman analogy, it just invites the problem of the 10th level Dragon Disiciple. Prereqs include Nondragon. 10th level makes you into a Dragon. If PrC prereqs are constantly checked, you loss all abilities granted by the Dragon Disiciple. If they are a one time check you don't.

 

[tylermalan]

First, I'm not saying that you have the innate, biological ability - I'm just saying that you have the ability and that "the character" is in reference to you - equipment and all.

As for the Dragon Disciple, it says the following (italics mine):

"Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:
Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)...

Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template..."

To become (first start taking levels in the class) a dragon disciple, one cannot already be (prior to taking the first level) a half-dragon, and the 10th level ability makes the dragon disciple take on (acquire after the beginning) the half-dragon template.

In this case, the specific wording allows it, even if it is a constant check, because the terms become, already be, and take on are used.

 

[starwed]

Let's change the scolls to a Ring of Continual Aid and a Ring of Continual Invisibility (ignoring the fact these shouldn't exist), now does one meet the Prereqs for MT?

No, becuase you don't have the ability to cast spells. The scrolls issue is one that actually comes up sometimes with PrC prereq arguments, because the description of scrolls makes reference to casting a spell from the scroll. There's no such issue with rings; you don't cast a spell from the ring, you activate the ring, and the ring produces an effect.

In any case, with Mystic Theurge prereqs, there's an obvious ruling almost any DM will make, regardless of what they think the RAW are. It's not nearly as obvious with the Delver's ability, which is why I recommended that the bonus to darkvision simply be allowed, since the class isn't going to break the game.