Dungeon magazine says maybe more vile. Huzzah!

[Maerdwyn]

There are clearly many, many people on both sides of the issue. However, I question whether Paizo will gain more subscribers than it stands to lose for their decision to turn towards the "vile." The number of D&D gamers who don't subscribe already, but would be convinced to subscribe by this seemingly minor shift would likely not be all that large. The number who would be convinced not to renew based on this announced policy would also not be huge, but, I would imagine, be larger than that former group - it will anger/turn off more people simply based on the announcement, before the actual content is even published.

On the other hand, I would venture to guess that there would be money to be made in publishing a magazine called, say, "Black Dragon" for those who do want the content. If it is targeted towards older, more mature gamers, they will be more likely to have the disposable income to be able to subscribe to 2 (or 3) magazines instead of 1 (or 2).

They could even make it a subscription-only publication, to make sure it covered its costs (even piggy-backed with Dragon - so that to get it you had to subscribe to both Dragon and Black Dragon), or it could be published quarterly or with fewer pages until it took off.

That way, those who want the content could pay for it and get it, and those of us who don't want it can keep getting the magazine we've been getting for years.

 

[SemperJase]

However, I question whether Paizo will gain more subscribers than it stands to lose for their decision to turn towards the "vile."

I completely agree. A related issue is how does this affect the view of roleplaying in general?

For most of the public, D&D IS roleplaying. Dragon and Dungeon magazines are the official magazines of D&D. There is a responsibility for these magazines to project the image of the gaming industry. There are words in the last George R.R. Martin short story that Dragon printed that would offend Eric's grandmother and are prohibited from being repeated here. Should Dragon print content that couldn't be reproduced here? That is too "mature" for my taste.

I'm sure Paizo hopes to increase circulation, but I just don't see it working by printing more exclusionary content. Yes, the demographic has changed to an older audience, but a large number of readers are still a young crowd or are parents with children who will not want that content in their house. Is Dragon so well off it can do without young readers?

 

[Darrin Drader]

Is Dragon so well off it can do without young readers?

I think Paizo understands their demographic extremely well and they are giving their readers what they want. I don't see how they can be faulted for that.

 

[mmadsen]

What "vile" material do most people object to?

Given how much cruelty we can find in history -- particularly the history that makes for good adventure stories -- I think it's only natural to present some examples for use in people's campaigns: inhabitants of cities that resist invasion put to the sword, cowards with wounds on their backs impaled upon pikes, criminals heads left to rot and have their eyes pecked out by birds above the castle gate, etc. Unfortunately, the Book of Vile Darkness doesn't really cover that kind of material.

Given what a huge role evil sacrifices and demonic possession play in swords & sorcery fiction, I think it's only natural to cover that material too -- and the Book of Vile Darkness does cover occult evil.

What I don't really understand is the fascination with silly evil. Nipple clamps with magical powers? Riiiiggghhht.

 

[SemperJase]

I think Paizo understands their demographic extremely well and they are giving their readers what they want. I don't see how they can be faulted for that.

So you do believe that Paizo will benefit by alienating those who do not want this content?

In your view, the magazine will increase its circulation by targeting an audience who wants more "mature" content?

I just don't see it. Adult content has a tendancy to reduce audiences, not increase them. Look at rated R movies.
Of the top 20 box-office grossing movies on 2002, how many were rated R?

Answer: 0

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Is BOVD the best selling non core hardcover? If not why is there such a push to put "Mature" stuff in Dungeon? I want planar adventures myself.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

So you do believe that Paizo will benefit by alienating those who do not want this content?

In your view, the magazine will increase its circulation by targeting an audience who wants more "mature" content?

I just don't see it. Adult content has a tendancy to reduce audiences, not increase them. Look at rated R movies.
Of the top 20 box-office grossing movies on 2002, how many were rated R?

Answer: 0

How does the occasional adventure or article in a magazine alienate you? The majority of the both magazines and the game itself will continue to be just as its is. Does it really hurt you if those of us who want the vile/mature content get an article every three or four months. I don't think any of the pro vile/mature people who have posted thus far are calling for an all mature/vile D&D, I am certainly not. Why is it so hard to avoid the articles or adventures you don't like and read the ones you do? I think the rest of us do that all the time. I for one can't stand greyhawk but i am not cancelling my subscription to dungeon because it happens to have the living greyhawk journal in it now, I simply don't read it.

We just want what all the other people who write into dungeon want, more of what we like.

Dirge

 

[Bendris Noulg]

So you do believe that Paizo will benefit by alienating those who do not want this content?

If it attracts an equal (or greater) number of people that do want it, than of course they'd benefit. If they are making the change, than perhaps they feel that this is the case.

In your view, the magazine will increase its circulation by targeting an audience who wants more "mature" content?

I'd likely by it more often (being that I've only found 5 issues worth buying in the publication's entire history).

I just don't see it. Adult content has a tendancy to reduce audiences, not increase them. Look at rated R movies.
Of the top 20 box-office grossing movies on 2002, how many were rated R?

Answer: 0

I'll do one better. From MovieWeb.com, the top grossing 75 movies ever:

G: 8 (which includes that family film about adultary and betrayal in the civil war, Gone with the Wind)
PG: 21 (which includes the movie featuring a vile religion, Temple of Doom)
PG-13: 37
R: 9 (which includes the most excellent Exorcist)

So, yes, while "R" is the #2 minority, the highest amount is within the PG-13 range. And if the profitability of "R" was really a hindrance in the industry, such great movies as Saving Private Ryan, Shindler's List and many others never would habe gone beyond book form.

In addition, almost everyone in the (civilized) world goes to see movies, orders pay-per-view, or buys videos/DVDs (and G and PG films are also drastically inflated by parents buying tickets for themselves when they take their kids). Only a small percentage of that population plays RPGs, making it a completely different demographic to begin with. If Paizo's marketing research suggests that shifting towards "mature" content will sell more copies, than it is indeed in their best interest to do so. The moment that Dragon and Dungeon left WotC's hands, the possibility of a shift in focus has been a possibility.

Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't yet happened.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I don't think any of the pro vile/mature people who have posted thus far are calling for an all mature/vile D&D, I am certainly not.

Absolutely! I'd certainly like a mature publication, but wouldn't have any problem if it was a third publication (being that I'm not buying the other two). Heck, BoVD is my favorite WotC product, and I don't even use it that often (for reasons I've already stated).

 

[SemperJase]

How does the occasional adventure or article in a magazine alienate you? ...
Why is it so hard to avoid the articles or adventures you don't like and read the ones you do?

It is hard to avoid and it alienates me becaue I have a subscription. When I subscribed, Dragon and Dungeon magazines could be read by people of all ages.
Now Dragon and Dungeon print "vile" content, Dragon prints short stories with curse words in it and Dungeon is apparently promising more of this.
It alienates me when I consider cancelling my subscription with the knowledge that I have to review a magazine to see if its content is acceptable for me.

I for one can't stand greyhawk but i am not cancelling my subscription to dungeon because it happens to have the living greyhawk journal in it now, I simply don't read it.

Obviously this is different. Greyhawk isn't ethically offensive to people. It's much different to not read an article on Greyhawk than to not want the magazine in your house when they print vile content.

So again, should Paizo print content that is likely to shrink its circulation?