Dungeon magazine says maybe more vile. Huzzah!

[Darrin Drader]

So you do believe that Paizo will benefit by alienating those who do not want this content?

I believe that those few people who will be alienated and thus cancel their subscriptions based on an occasional article of minor signifficance will not affect Paizo in the slightest.

In your view, the magazine will increase its circulation by targeting an audience who wants more "mature" content?

I don't think it will have any effect whatsoever. With any periodical there is always a certain number of people who do not renew their subscriptions. Likewise, there is always a certain number of new subscribers. If this doesn't add new subscribers, it likely won't discourage others who have been considering a subscription, so worst case scenario, the magazine breaks even.

Best case scenario, the controversy or the subject matter draws new people who are interested in the magazine to it. Someone who owns his own D20 company who happened to put out a title focusing on demons told me that the best thing that could happen to him is for some church group to start burning his books. Controversy sells.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Best case scenario, the controversy or the subject matter draws new people who are interested in the magazine to it. Someone who owns his own D20 company who happened to put out a title focusing on demons told me that the best thing that could happen to him is for some church group to start burning his books. Controversy sells.

Great I'm being alienated as part of a marketing ploy.

 

[am181d]

I seriously doubt that when Paizo says "maybe we'll do more Vile content articles" they it as something they'd do frequently. I believe they've announced a Mature title for 4th quarter this year. I suspect that, if anything, they'll do a tie-in article then.

Personally, I think Dragon needs to do a better job of supporting all of the 3e material that hasn't been released as OGC.

Because we can get prestige classes. We can get psionics. But the only place where we're going to be able to get new epic stuff or new deity stuff for now is through Dragon (or--to a lesser extent the WotC website).

Within this context, Dragon is the right place to support BoVD (or whatever other mature titles WotC puts out), but I don't think they should support it any more heavily then any of the other 3e products.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

But the only place where we're going to be able to get new epic stuff or new deity stuff for now is through Dragon (or--to a lesser extent the WotC website).

Actually, ELH and D&DG are both slated for SRD release in the near future.

 

[boschdevil]

As for Vile content helping current subscriptions, I really believe that thi can be a debatable point. I have read several comments on these boards and in Dungeon who aren't impressed with the Vile content, and I have read several comments on these boards and in Dungeon who really like it.

However, I believe that it will help alienate the game to young gamers since their parents may restrict their intake of the game due to Vile material. Without young games, though subscriptions may or may not be strengthened due to Vile content, future subscriptions should steadily decline due to natural gamer attrition. So in essense, they saving the gangreen hand not realizing that their arm will have to be taken off in the future.

The only reason why I care one way or another is that I'm really not for activities that may have an adverse impact on gamer pools. D&D is not as much fun when you try to play it by yourself.

 

[Ranger REG]

OFF-TOPIC, AS A MATTER OF FACT...

I just don't see it. Adult content has a tendancy to reduce audiences, not increase them. Look at rated R movies.
Of the top 20 box-office grossing movies on 2002, how many were rated R?

Answer: 0

Because they're all entertaining, plus it is acceptable to a much wider audience. Of course, one should be worried that a dirty old man in his 40's with no date nor children of his own is watching Harry Potter with a theater full of kids.

But market have shown that adult film industry is pocketing billions. It's also a dirty secret that many media industries like Time-Warner reap a lot of profit by offering pay-per-view adult movies beam straight to your home or hotel room.

Hey, sue me for watching PBS' Frontline.

 

[kenjib]

On the mmadsen scale:

# "Vile" material should be kept out of the core D&D books.
# "Vile" material should be kept out of popular D&D supplements and magazines.

This move would move the magazine toward being unreadable by many younger fans of D&D just so fans of "mature" material can get extra boobs and gore. In addition, most parents wouldn't associate this kind of content with D&D (a game which in the public sphere has a strong reputation as being for kids) and might not know what their kid is reading. I think a second "Black Dragon" magazine would be a gread idea. They can make it quarterly and Avalanche Press can do the art direction.

Looking back at my first experiences with D&D, I think it's kind of sad that some people want a market that is less inclusive of younger audiences. Yes, there is a distinct difference between levels of depiction -- a module where an act of depravity is suggested versus content where it is codified, described in graphic detail, and procedures provided for every aspect thereof. Even the nature of some of the specific acts really goes beyond the examples of mature themes in 1e (which I would argue really do show maturity in how they were handled -- i.e. included as a normal part of the adventure instead of highlighted and exaggerated for shock/shlock value).

And for the record I am far from conservative, so the stereotypes being bandied about do not apply. Myself, I just think that the vile content published so far shows clearly that WotC does not exhibit the level of sophistication required to print the type of mature material that would interest me. I think their coverage has been trite and frankly, juvenile in it's lack of exploration of the true issues at hand in favor of a simple cataloging of every imaginable depravity without almost no context. It is also exaggerated to the point of being comical, which is not my taste for such material. I think it exhibits a lack of good taste. I have nothing against it being published though, because it was done in a different context than Dragon/Dungeon, in which the pages are shared with more general use material.

I do think that the themes, handled appropriately, make good content for games though. It's all about presentation and context, which I have found sadly lacking so far. I think shadow's allusion to Beavis and Butthead is very apt.

 

[Ranger REG]

I don't know. Can it be worse than those horror film magazines?

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

This move would move the magazine toward being unreadable by many younger fans of D&D just so fans of "mature" material can get extra boobs and gore.

You know, I understand when people who don't like the mature/vile stuff feel insulted when they're called "pansies" and "whiners" but this works on both sides of the fence fellas. A mature game does not have to be about "boobs and gore" and I am a little peeved that my style of play has been reduced to the above description.

I run a mature game that deals with mature themes, sometimes these themes include rape, human sacrifice and other atrocities, but they are always shown for what they are, atrocities. My players enjoy that the villians they come up against are truly evil people that do truly evil things. They certainly don't douse my players in their bodily fluids and then expose themsleves, which is what some people think a vile/mature game mustbe.

I respect the fact that not everyone is comfortable with the type of game I play but please don't assume that just because I like the BoVD that my games are juvenile slasher flicks filled with as much blood, guts and sex as I can cram into them.

Dirge

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I respect the fact that not everyone is comfortable with the type of game I play but please don't assume that just because I like the BoVD that my games are juvenile slasher flicks filled with as much blood, guts and sex as I can cram into them.

No kidding... Whenever someone says "vile" nowadays, there's this automatical assumption that it's a mix between a T&A film and Fangoria's Midnight Special of the Week. I try to enlighten, but some folks like to cling to their prejudices.

Consider for a moment folks... There's a Dungeon adventure. Then BBEG has the Corrupt Spell Feat. Tada! I just included vile content! Now everyone that doesn't like it can avoid an entire issue over it, cancle their subscription, or whatever other over-reactive response they feel like.

You don't have BoVD? You don't know what Corrupt Spell does? Well, you ask, you find out, and now you know. Big whoop there to impress upon your morals or scare away the kiddies.

Here's another example: BBEG is performing a ritual sacrifice. The entire formula of the sacrifice is calculated, what he's doing, how long, etc. In the end, all the adventure needs to say is "at the end of five rounds, the ritual will conclude and [X Event] will occur." No reason to own the BoVD here, either. No mention of the BoVD even needs to be made, since the conditions of the encounter and the time-frame of the adventure already establish everything already. Sure, someone with BoVD could reverse--engineer it and ensure that the rules in BoVD were followed (indeed, I'd be surprised if a number of 3rd Party Publishers don't do this!), but if you don't own it, it's not a big deal.

Now, if Dungeon does become a T&A/Fangoria crossbreed, well, shame on them. Even as a fan of vile content, I wouldn't be interested. But the possibility of the inclusion of BoVD rules shouldn't be such a big deal that folks get their under-roos all bunched up over it. 'Cause like I said earlier, this stuff's been in D&D for quite some time, just not codified. Codifying it isn't be that big of a deal.