Dungeon World Gets New Owners, Second Edition Planned

Luke Crane has purchased Dungeon World from its original creators and has plans to make a new edition of the game. Earlier this month, Crane, who previously designed The Burning Wheel and Mouse Guard Roleplaying Games, announced on the Dungeon World+ discord that he had "bought the game from the original creators" (Adam Koebel and Sage LaTorra) with a business partner and was preparing to work on a new edition. Crane did not specify whether either Koebel or LaTorra would be involved in the new edition.

Dungeon World's first edition won several awards when released in 2012, including the 2012 Golden Geek RPG of the Year and the Ennie Awards for Best Rules Gold Winner in 2013. The game was a Powered by the Apocalypse system in which players gained experience points when rolling a 6 or below on a check (which resulted in "trouble" occurring on the check and the opportunity for the DM to make a DM move. The game's co-creator Adam Koebel was a prominent creator and early TTRPG personality until accusations emerged of poor behavior by former partners.

Crane was previously the head of community at Kickstarter and attempted to run a campaign for The Perfect RPG zine back in 2021. He cancelled the campaign after it emerged that Koebel was involved with the project and later resigned from his job as a result of the backlash.

 

[Mallus]

I'd be twice as interested in an edition of Dungeon World that used half as many words.

 

[Aldarc]

This is sort of a head scratcher, to be honest.

• It's now 10+ years since initial release.

Why would a 10+ year gap be a head-scratcher for a new release? There is a 10-year-gap between D&D 2014 and D&D 2024 as well as a 10-year-gap between CoC 6E and CoC 7E. 7th Sea was first released in 1999, and it got its second edition in 2016.

• It's been saddled with a massive black eye from one of its original creators.

Who is explicitly not involved. That black eye has also not stopped other creators from supporting Dungeon World.

• There's now a long line of successors / add ons in the same creative space (Stonetop, Perilous Wilds, Freebooters on the Frontier, Fellowship) that are near-universally agreed as improvements to the original.

You will generally not find these games in your average TTRPG store. Even after 10+ years, I could generally find Dungeon World in a TTRPG store here in Germany. (I was pleasantly surprised to find a German translation of Perilous Wilds in my store.) People generally don't know about these other games, which is why people ask first about running Dungeon World. Only then do they hear about these other games.

Stonetop and FotF aren't really games that would replace Dungeon World for me, since the aforementioned games move Dungeon World into more specific niches than Dungeon World.

• Blades in the Dark / Forged in the Dark didn't even exist when DW was first published.

And since then, there's not really a FitD game that fits in Dungeon World's niche of D&D-esque adventure. None of the projects that tried ever really got off the ground. Most of the ones that people occasionally cite are half-finished projects that started shortly after BitD was released but were abandoned thereafter. As it turns out, when this question comes up, many people just recommend playing Dungeon World.

• It's hardly a stretch to say that Ironsworn is treading pretty closely to the same ground as well . . . and Ironsworn + expansions has a larger following than DW at this point.

Does it? Ironsworn has a Reddit community of 10K+ people, whereas Dungeon World has one of 17K+ people. I think that your strong biases towards Ironsworn is clouding your judgment. I also tend to think of Ironsworn more as a solo game, which is why I think that it isn't really covering the same ground.

• Daggerheart is coming, and coming soon . . . and lives in the same creative space . . . and has infinitely more mindshare, audience, and potential backing.

IMHO, Candela Obscura was a bit of a dud that didn't make much of a splash despite having "indefinitely more mindshare, audience, and potential backing." The reality is that Daggerheart may meet a similar fate, especially if their fans just want Critical Role to play more D&D instead. Critters may not want a game in that "same creative space" as Dungeon World. Critical Role cultivated an audience that enjoys Matt Mercer's more traditional 2e D&D style storytelling. They may bounce off of Daggerheart.

Like, I'm a big fan of PbtA / FitD style gaming in general, and fantasy PbtA in particular, and the statement of "Dungeon World 2.0 is on the way!" does absolutely nothing for me.

If it does nothing for you, then move on. There is no harm in a second edition for those who otherwise want it. I think that there is value in having a second edition of Dungeon World to refocus the DW Community. As you say, one of the creators has a black mark. A new edition may be a breath of fresh air for the community, even if it's helmed by Luke Crane.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

I guess I'm just skeptical that there's really any significant latent audience just waiting in the wings for DW 2.0.

But I suppose even it's just say, 1,000 total backers on the Kickstarter, it might be worth it for that audience.

Yeah I have absolutely no idea what the audience or demand is for this. I feel like any number will surprise me.

 

[Aldarc]

Yeah I have absolutely no idea what the audience or demand is for this. I feel like any number will surprise me.

By my estimation there has been desire for a DW 2E in the community for some time now, but it was previously seen as something of a lost/improbable cause. Adam Koebel was in involuntary exile, and Sage LaTorra harbored a mixed relationship with some of the game design elements (e.g., killing evil races, etc.). So the prospect of a DW 2E was mostly seen as dead in the water, which is one reason why people were recommending other iterations, as these were being more actively supported.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I'm not gonna comment on the issues regarding Crane's relationship to Koebel.

But the quote of Crane saying that DW needs a good editing pass leaves me hesitant. I absolutely love Burning Wheel, it's a great game. But all the Crane's products that I've touched severely lacked in editing. The organization, layout, language used, the amount of words to convey simple concepts has always been very lacking. It is not one of his strengths. Reading through Burning Wheel books made me think so many times that he, just like many authors, needed someone to come in and just cut stuff.

I have never played or opened a book of Dungeon World. But I would not be reassured if Crane out of all people says he bought it to give it an editing pass.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

By my estimation there has been desire for a DW 2E in the community for some time now, but it was previously seen as something of a lost/improbable cause. Adam Koebel was in involuntary exile, and Sage LaTorra harbored a mixed relationship with some of the game design elements (e.g., killing evil races, etc.). So the prospect of a DW 2E was mostly seen as dead in the water, which is one reason why people were recommending other iterations, as these were being more actively supported.

Good points. And for what it's worth, I know I'm fully on board for DW 2e!

 

[Helena Real]

This is definitely some unexpected news. As a long-time DW fan, I never expected to see a new edition, especially after Adam Koebel's debacle, but here we are.

In case you're looking for a heroic fantasy PbtA game, I'd like to recommend my own, Against the Odds, that's currently in active playtesting and you can find it here: Against the Odds by Helena Real

 

[innerdude]

Ironsworn has a Reddit community of 10K+ people, whereas Dungeon World has one of 17K+ people. I think that your strong biases towards Ironsworn is clouding your judgment. I also tend to think of Ironsworn more as a solo game, which is why I think that it isn't really covering the same ground.

Ironsworn is also 4 years younger than DW. But just in the last 2 years, Ironsworn had a $347k Kickstarter in 2023 for Starforged, and a $200k Kickstarter for Sundered Isles this year.

Dungeon World's kickstarter didn't even crack 6 figures ($82k).

Sundered Isles by itself is nearly 3x the total funds spent on the original Dungeon World Kickstarter. Starforged is 4x DW's Kickstarter total.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm happy for folks that are happy for DW 2.0.

I'm just saying that even if L. Crane hits a home run with a "cleaned up, better edited" DW v2.0, I still don't think it would be the best entry point to PbtA fantasy. Ironsworn is just that good.

If the kick starter comes anywhere close to Starforged's $350k tally, I'll tip my hat to Mr. Crane and admit I was wrong

 

[Aldarc]

The Kickstarter for Blades in the Dark made $179,280 pre-pandemic whereas Ironsworn: Starforged made $347,983 post-pandemic on its Kickstarter. Which is the better game? Which has the bigger community?

Avatar Legends made $9+ million. Where is its gaming community? Is Avatar Legends not a good game if its community is not as big as Blades in the Dark or Ironsworn? Or is it a better game because it made significantly more than Blades in the Dark and Ironsworn combined?

The reality is that some people and companies are better at running and marketing for Kickstarters than others. And there have been a rise in Kickstarter spending, especially during and following the Pandemic.

What were Kickstarters even like in the year 2012 when Dungeon World came out? There wasn't a million dollar TTRPG Kickstarter until 2016 (i.e., 7th Sea 2e), and there were only five before 2021. But while we are asking, how does 7th Sea 2e's community compare to Ironsworn's? Surely 7th Sea's 2e's community must be larger since it made more money than Ironsworn.

Despite Luke Crane's past connections with Kickstarter, I don't think that he has or runs the best Kickstarters. He's a good game designer, but I don't think that he is the greatest with marketing his products or maximizing profit. I don't think that his company has the outreach of even small time indie companies like Magpie Games, Evil Hat Productions, or Modiphius. So if there will be a Dungeon World 2e Kickstarter, I am honestly not expecting much. But that has more to do with who would be running the Kickstarter and marketing than the strength of the product and its community.

I remember being bombarded with advertisements for Kickstarters like Avatar Legends, Shadowdark, and even Ironsworn. DC20 had a large network of YouTubers who were promoting the product, because the creator had developed a YouTube following on the platform. I don't recall getting those sort of advertisements from good high quality games like Torchbearer or Stonetop. Neither designer has a large following on YouTube or other social media platforms.

How much a game makes with its Kickstarter doesn't tell me the whole picture about either quality of the game or the size of its community. I see great games barely make their goals on Kickstarter, and I see garbage games rake in hundreds of thousands.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I’m certainly interested in this. I don’t really care about the numbers or who the audience is… I’m interested, so I’ll back it if they go the crowdfunding route (which I expect they will).

I think Dungeon World can benefit greatly from a revision. This is both from an organizational/layout perspective as well as incorporating improvements/enhancements made to PbtA over the past several years.