Dungeon World Meets Blades in the Dark

[Fenris-77]

I guess, then, the bigger question here is what does a score look like so that we can make sure these things are actually feeding into the score?

This is something that's on my list, yeah. I think that delves, for example, will need to look at least somewhat different than a normal Blades score, or at least more structured initially, so it's an important question. I think there may need to be a little more structure built-in around score type, and that would seem to me to be the obvious place to build in those engagement consequences.

This could be as simple, generally, as having adventure type specific inputs for the Journey modifier outputs. You don't want to take away the immediacy of Blades framing here of course, that would be a negative IMO, but maybe just suggest via a list of some kind, what negative and positive initial framing might look like for different kinds of adventures.

 

[Manbearcat]

So I entirely missed the bit about Folktale being an analog for Rep. Until I noticed it, I was thinking Doom could maybe be both Heat and Rep.

Is that feasible?

Essentially, this would connect Tier to Legend. Which when you think about it, it makes sense.

If players can spend Legend the same way that they spend Rep in Blades to have extra DT Activities, that gives them the ability to avoid Doom if they want. But it would be at the expense of going up in Tier. Seems like some potentially interesting decision points.

Again, just spitballing.

Alright, rethinking Impending Doom/Doom and Quest.

There are no levels. Impending Doom just turns to Doom after Legend ticks it full.

Once that happens, one of your Positive Factions/Friends or Allies (if its The Town's Engineers or The Town Guard - it might be an actual siege of the Town walls...if its is The Church, it might be a sustained campaign by unbelievers to demoralize the flock or actual terrorism...if its The Underclass, it might be a brutal taxation or indentured servitude scheme by the aristocracy/governor, etc) is under sustained siege that they cannot recover from without your help. This is either with an existing Negative Faction that you're Enemies with (eg The Faithless are attacking The Church) or a new Faction becomes your Enemy (-1 Faction Status). Regardless, this Faction will be higher Tier than your Friend/Ally, so, left to their own devices, your Friend/Ally will almost surely be down-tiered by the conflict. Until you resolve this conflict, you're in a somewhat similar situation to At-War. Let's call this status either Oath or Quest.

During Doom, the Company:

1) Gets only 1 Downtime Activity during Downtime Phase (Camp phase still gets 1).

2) Gain only half Folktale from Adventures.

3) This Friend/Ally is not available to you until Oath/Quest status is resolved. This could have implications on Adventures available or Downtime Activities/bonuses to available (eg The Church for the Paladin's Faith or The Orphanage for the Fighter's Obligation or The Hospitaler for the Company's Recover move).

4) You don't gain any further Legend from Adventures (good), because you're already maxed and in Doom...but start a Faction Tug-of-War Clock 8 and set it at 5. During Downtime, tick it for the opposing Factions (Fortune Rolls). If it fills, your Friend/Ally Loses Tier. If it goes to 1, they've somehow managed to handle the crisis on their own. Regardless if they prevail or lose, you lose 1 Faction with your Friend/Ally.

5) Whether you resolve Oath/Quest via an Adventure, or (4) resolves it, afterward, your Legend resets to 1 and you're back in Impending Doom.

Thoughts?

 

[Manbearcat]

Zooming back out, I can't recall if I've made it clear what The Faction Game is for in this prospective game.

In Blades, The Faction Game is an end unto itself. The Win Con in Blades is to ascend the hierarchy (to Tier 6).

That is NOT the Win Con in this game. Ascending hierarchy in this game is the means * 2 to the (end) Win Con in this game, which is (#1) defeat your espoused enemies at the outset of the game. The ultimate Win Con being, defeat the Tier 6 Front/Faction outlined in the original session.

The secondary means to the Win Con is an archetectural/systemization one. It (#2) systematizes your Company's progress and the progress of your Company's Friends/Allies so that the climb to become capable of achieving the ultimate Win Con of the game is mechanically actuated.

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright, I don't have a ton of time to discuss a lot of things. Just going to pick out some things and discuss them. @Ovinomancer and @Fenris-77

1) On Wises (Illuminate/Spout Lore/Study) and Circles (Consort/Carouse + tons of Playbook abilities) in Dungeon World/Blades. Its unclear to me (from an application within play) why these things are controversial. These things are present in both games as either orthodox or niche application of base moves, they're heavily distributed among playbooks (Fighters consult the spirits of their sword, Rangers consult animals, Thieves/Spiders consult their underworld contacts, Bards consult whomever the eff they want, Clerics/Wizards/Whispers consult the supernatural), and Blades codifies this w/ Friends/Allies and Info Gathering (where these things see heavy usage) and use w/ Acquire Asset or Longterm Project in DTAs.

2) I think the conversation/thoughts on hardness of scene framing or "scene transition flow" is interesting. Its something that I've seen be an issue for some people in various games (4e D&D which is a Action Scene > Hard Transition > Action Scene rinse/repeat was typically called "jarring" by certain folks). There is a personal litmus test there that is happening which I think is difficult to suss out. I personally haven't felt this in any scene-framed game, but plenty of folks feel it in some games but not in others.

"What work is the engagement roll doing in Journey's/it seems incoherent or a poor fit." On this, I have some commentary and a question.

Commentary

The Engagement Roll serves a dual purpose:

1) It allows player decision-points and resource allocation (who to talk to, what actions to take, what DTAs to devote to this next score if any, who/what to focus on as target) to mechanically impact (Position) the opening framing of the Score and, through that, the fiction/gamestate.

2) Cut to the Action. It lets us get right to the first serious obstacle of the Score. This creates a hard transition where we elide all of what happened from the end of the Information Gathering/Free Play scene(s) (which is going to be a fair bit temporally and spatially) to some segment (first serious obstacle) of the Score.

Given the above (which you guys both know...but I'm putting it out there to capture my train of thought), its not clear to me why going from Info Gathering > First Serious Obstacle of Score via Engagement Roll is in "feels right" territory but Journey > First Serious Obstacle of Adventure via Engagement Roll is in "jarring" territory.

It seems like (a) End of Journey will likely elide similar (or even less) temporal/spatial information in its transition to Adventure than Info Gathering/Free Play will in its transition to Score, (b) its unclear to me why it matters if it was a bit more or a bit less (or even the same), (c) the other option is to rid "in the wild" Adventures of (1) above which means that the GM is extrapolating opening Position for Adventure Obstacle # 1 rather than mechanically instantiating it (its not clear to me how that is an improvement), (d) I still don't see how a 1/2/3 day Journey's contributory effects on the coming Adventure isn't something that should be seriously relevant (and therefore operationalized via +1/-1 to Engagement Roll).

Question

This is Harper's offering for a Blades Fantasy Hack where a dangerous journey is to take place before a Score (he doesn't give a name for this...but let's call it...Adventure!). Below he instantiates it as (a) a Fortune Roll which (b) assumes a hexcrawl map with Zones. I wonder how you guys feel about this procedure in place of the Perilous Journey procedure?

Changing the Game p 233
THERE OR BACK AGAIN

Make a fortune roll to see how dangerous a journey is. Take 1d for each map zone traveled through. Adjust the number of dice down for safer routes (quality guides, friendly factions in zones, etc.) or up for more dangerous routes (alpha predators, Witch-king cults, enemy factions, etc.).

Critical: A hazard strikes without warning. An ambush drops into the middle of the party, guns blazing. A Razormaw’s tendrils entwine half the party and drag them away.

6: A hazard strikes but there is time to react. Suddenly a PC is caught in a web and covered in Shirkers. A bandit ambush is revealed by the crack of gunfire. A Grey Fox patrol demands “protection” tax.

4/5: A hazard protects something of value. A magi and their hirelings are under attack by a group of bandits. A group of white apes are spotted picking over an abandoned pilgrim camp.

1-3: No dangers arise or some small advantage is gained. A cache of supplies are found in a box at the waystation with a note reading “take only what you need.” A merchant offers a safer route or just the right tool.

The GM then decides in which zone the encounter happens. After things are resolved, if the players press on, cut to the destination.

This sounds cool. I like it.

First, a thought and a few issues.

Thought

Its clear that Harper still intends an Engagement Roll here because he doesn't say no Engagement Roll (he says "cut to the destination...which is what you do with the Info Gathering > Score transition). So it appears that he's still systematizing Engagement Roll to determine Position for the first relevant obstacle of the Score (Adventure in the wild).

Is this is a problem in the vein that we have above or is the problem lessened/removed because of what he's doing procedurally? If so, I'm curious as to why?

Issues

1) This doesn't capture the Journey mechanics/ethos of Dungeon World/Perilous Wilds (and the aesthetic of Torchbearer). That is fundamentally necessary to what I'm trying to do here. This looks more like Cortex+ Fantasy Hack (which is fine...great game...but not what I'm looking for at all).

2) With the above approach (while its a good approach), there is a lessening/subtraction of breadth of decision-points, their individual heft, and their interactions with each other means considerably less tactical & stategic overhead, opportunities for "thematic differentiation in expression of PCs" (via the decision-point > actions/advancement deployment > outcomes loop), and potentially consequential snowballing in the Journey phase of play.

I don't want less of any of that. I want the Journey phase of play to be more chunky, more consequential, more fun, and more Dungeon World/Torchbearer-ey than what would be instantiated in Harper's hack above.


Thoughts on any/all of that would be appreciated. Its a lot of stuff and you've both already contributed a lot so if you want to just give it a pass, no worries! If nothing else, I'm basically just laying out my thoughts on design here and that is productive for me even if no one interacts with it.

 

[Manbearcat]

AVENGERS CLAIM MAP

This will be the Crew I'm working up for Playtest. Used some of Sean Nittner's awesome Vigilante stuff .

I'll work on the actual Crew and 3 Playbooks later.

 

[Fenris-77]

Here's my issue with circles and wises, as concisely as I can manage. In Torchbearer every character gets circles and wises in addition to their stats and abilities. In your conception where Lore and Consort stand in for those two things, characters can choose to have mechanical heft there, but only instead of other stats. You don't get a lot of dots to assign, nor a ton of stress to spend, so taking a zero in those isn't awful, but it's really not the same as Torchbearer where those two mechanics don't impact you starting stats or proficiency on other areas at all.

I also have some doubts about the relative usefulness of Consort specifically in the Adventure phase, as opposed to Blades scores, given that genre conventions usually call for more combat and exploration and less social interaction there. That's a somewhat separate issue though.

 

[Manbearcat]

Here's my issue with circles and wises, as concisely as I can manage. In Torchbearer every character gets circles and wises in addition to their stats and abilities. In your conception where Lore and Consort stand in for those two things, characters can choose to have mechanical heft there, but only instead of other stats. You don't get a lot of dots to assign, nor a ton of stress to spend, so taking a zero in those isn't awful, but it's really not the same as Torchbearer where those two mechanics don't impact you starting stats or proficiency on other areas at all.

I also have some doubts about the relative usefulness of Consort specifically in the Adventure phase, as opposed to Blades scores, given that genre conventions usually call for more combat and exploration and less social interaction there. That's a somewhat separate issue though.

Couple thoughts here:

1) I wouldn't look at the action resolution model for the game through the Torchbearer lens. Torchbearer is only in play here as (a) aspects of facets of action resolution in DW are TB inspired, (b) the structure of play, (c) aspects of the aesthetic of play.

2) If PC balance is a concern (either PC to PC or PC to obstacle), I wouldn't worry about that. On the former, DW does a great job with PC to PC balance (even with tight archetypes), the PC build model is going to hew toward DW (with multiple Advancements at the outset of play, rather than just the one in Blades), and some instantiation of Gambits will be in play.

3) While the general expectation is Wizards will be Spouting Lore more than other classes and Bards/Rogues will be calling upon aid from Relationships more than other classes (because thematic potency and thematic niche are a feature, not a bug here), every other playbook (as mentioned above) will likely have some instantiation of Circles-ish and/or Wise-ish stuff (within their thematic niche) in their Playbook Advancements (as mentioned in the above post).

4) I wouldn't underestimate Consort in the wild. Parleying with creatures (animals, bandits, raiders, even mythical creatures) is often going to be a feature of conflicts in the wild. Consort or Discern would be the two orthodox social openers to establish rapport/suss out "what makes this person/thing tick" for a Sway power play later with leverage (and therefore Potency and therefore Improved Effect).

Or Rangers calling upon animals of the forest. Or Rogues convincing a group of highwaymen to look the other way...or Paladin's converting those same highwaymen from their path. Or the Wizard "talking magic shop" with the evil necromancer so they'll give up a secret or so someone can get the drop on them. Etc.

 

[Manbearcat]

Some of that is where I was thinking with the Doom angle. There’s a weird west hack called A Fistful of Darkness. Instead of Heat/Wanted it has Doom and then the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse!

So doing something a little different may be in order to evoke the flavor/genre you’re going for. But any changes have to be considered against disrupting the tight interaction of all of Blades’ different parts.

My last iteration is something kindred with what you have here. What did you think about it?

So I entirely missed the bit about Folktale being an analog for Rep. Until I noticed it, I was thinking Doom could maybe be both Heat and Rep.

Is that feasible?

Essentially, this would connect Tier to Legend. Which when you think about it, it makes sense.

If players can spend Legend the same way that they spend Rep in Blades to have extra DT Activities, that gives them the ability to avoid Doom if they want. But it would be at the expense of going up in Tier. Seems like some potentially interesting decision points.

Again, just spitballing.

So, this would be an alternative to the model I presented above.

Going with something like this might be systemitized where (a) Folklore and Legend are on the same 12 point gauge and (b) Folklore fills from left to right and Legend the opposite. (c) Legend basically blocks you from Tiering up because of that so the Company has to spend Legend to have proportionately (more Legend spent at any one time = higher Magnitude event or Tier threat) dangerous event/threat manifest either against them directly or against a Friend/Ally or Positive Faction. These (d) "Doom Adventures" wouldn't give Coin or Folklore as Payoff. They would remove Legend in proportion to the Adventure (= to what Coin would have been).

This (i) would give the players more control of the firehose of adversity that Doom is (when and to what degree it manifests) and (ii) incentivize them to manage it so they can Tier up.

It needs to be punitive though and I don't want it to be formulaic in the management (eg its always strategically best to alternate between a chosen Adventure and a "Doom Adventure")

Thoughts? You think that is better/worse/just different than my conception a few posts above?

 

[Manbearcat]

THE FIGHTER

Starting Actions: Skirmish * 2, Command * 1


Dangerous Friends/Allies:

Gen - Thrifty caravan master
Miah - War heroine turned union leader
Glakrolla - Hobgoblin queen and tip of the spear
Landry - Former partner
Fasgarron - Ascetic beyond the wall
Four-finger Jack - Physicker from the war


Starting Abilities:

Which Weapon is Yours? All of them...: All weapons are fine in your hands. You get 2 special armor for weapons. You may expend your special armor to perform an uncanny feat of accuracy, prowess, or speed with a weapon. Take +1 Effect on any attack or special maneuver (disarm, trick shot, debilitate, covering fire, terrify, slip and move).

Battle Captain: Take +1d when you lead a group combat action. Also, you can suffer only 1 stress from any failed rolls.

Hoplite: Armor and shields you're wearing count as 1 less weight and are considered fine.


Advancement Abilities:

Made of Iron: You get 2 special armor to reduce any physical Harm or to push yourself on a physical action.

I've Got Your Back: When you Protect a teammate, take +1d to your resistance roll. If an ally needs getting out of a spot (caught from a fall, pulled out of a whirlpool, parley gone bad), take 1 Stress and you're there. Then take +1d for an Action or a Setup action.

Born of the Crucible: When you accept Harm rather than resisting it, clear 2 Stress. When you close to melee with an enemy who has harmed you, they falter, hesitate, or flinch.

Thousand Yard Stare: Before weapons are drawn, you may lock eyes with someone, forcing them to hesitate. Both of you know that you can interrupt whatever they do next. Take Controlled position for your next action against them.

Hordebreaker: In close combat, you are equal in Scale to a small gang.

Weapon of a Hundred Kills: One of your weapons has ended dozens upon dozens of lives. Their souls left something behind on the blade/head/tip/haft/guard/pommel of your weapon. Name the weapon. When you Push to Discern or Illuminate while its in your hands, it only costs 1 Stress and your GM will always tell you something interesting about your present situation.

Friends on the Watch: Take +1d when you Gather Information with members of any Town Watch. You and your allies gain Potency when acting on the answer.

Get Back on the Horse: You recover from Harm faster. Permanently fill in one of your Healing Clock segments. Take +1d to healing treatment rolls.

Muleblooded: Increase your Light Load to 5-6, your Normal Load to 7-8, and your Heavy Load to 9.

Bend Bars, Lift Gates: Freakish athlete. Take +1 Effect when you perform a feat of strength or athletic prowess.


Unique Equipment:

Fine Scale Armor - 2 Load
Fine Leather Armor - 0 Load
Fine Round Shield - 1 Load
Fine Halberd or Spear (Reach) - 2 Load
Fine Heavy Weapon (Close, Forceful) - 2 Load
Fine Hand Weapon (Close, Hand) - 1 Load
Fine Longbow (Far) and Ammo - 2 Load - * * (Ammo)
Fine Throwing Knives (Near) - 1 Load - * * * (Ammo)
Sigil of the Legion - 0 Load
Drinking Horn or Warning Horn - 0 Load
(1 Coin) Adventuring Gear (crowbar, ropes/pitons/chalk/harness/clips, torches, winter cloak) - 2 Load * * * (Uses)
(1 Coin) Healing Potion - 0 Load (Take 1 Stress for immediate Resistance Roll to Harm and +1d)
(1 Coin) Camp Supplies - 2 Load * * * (Uses)

 

[Manbearcat]

AVENGERS (COMPANY)


XP Trigger

When you play Avengers, you earn xp when you mete out justice on the wicked, deliver the downtrodden from their plight, or make the powerful face their exploitation or indifference.


Hunting Grounds

The farms beyond the wall
The underclass shanty town
The mines and crossroads of the deep wild
The seas (grass or water) where the raiders plunder


Favored Adventure Type

Protect the Meek
Right a Wrong
Bring Corruption to Light
Put an End to a Threat to the People


Starting Upgrades

Training: Body
Cohort: Expert, type Skulk (a Guide or a member of The Watch)


Contacts

Pimeon: Halfling sneak-thief whose ear is always to the ground.
Walker: Double agent crime boss.
Creed: Retired pit-fighter turned trainer.
Adralei: Elven ranger who lives beyond the wall.
Dunderbrek: Dwarven mining foreman.
Ukogak: Half-orc ranch hand and caravan guard.


Avengers Upgrades

Avengers Rigging: You get 2 free load worth of weapon or gear items.

Unflinching: Your Tier is effectively +1 during any Doom where the meek or the downtrodden are being preyed upon.

Irregulars: Experts gain +1d to Gather Information.

Dedicated: Experts are also Toughs.

Hardened: Each PC gets +1 Trauma box. This costs three upgrades to unlock, not just one. This may bring a PC with 4 trauma back into play if you wish.


Avengers Special Abilities

As Good as your Word: You may spend Folklore as Coin in downtime actions. Avengers gain Obligation as a second Vice.

Outside the Law: Each PC may add +1 action rating to Hunt, Prowl, or Command (up to a max rating of 3).

Moral Compass: Each PC gains an additional xp trigger: You fulfilled a promise at a cost to you or the crew.

All for One: During downtime one of your contacts or cohorts may take a downtime action to acquire an asset, reduce heat, or recover.

One for All: Spend one Folklore and describe how one of your contacts puts themself in danger to help you. Everyone in your crew gets one dot in an action your contact is skilled in for this Adventure.

Patron: When you advance your Tier, it costs half the coin it normally would. Who is your patron? Why do they help you?

Alpha's Nemesis: When you use Assault or Slay plans against a higher Tier faction, your Tier counts as +1.

The Man in the Chair: You have a quartermaster. Name him/her. Your quartermaster supplies the crew with extra Supply and Gear. Before each Adventure, roll Tier. 1/3 = 1, 4/5 = 2, 6 = 3 free Supply boxes to distribute to the Company for an Adventure in the wild or free Adventuring Gear boxes for an Adventure in Town.