Dungeon World

[Retreater]

how do you handle success with a cost? In a hack & slash, or defy danger?

With hack and slash the danger is that the monster does its listed damage.
Defy danger depends on the situation. For example trying to get away from a rock slide might mean no damage, but your foot is caught in debris so you'll have to take a turn to free yourself, being potentially exposed to the same collopase the next turn.

 

[Ovinomancer]

They have some hellacious bonuses to hack and slash. Both of the warrior-types have +3 to hit from Strength. So I guess it's technically possible to fail, just incredibly unlikely. Same thing with defy danger on anything Strength based, which most of the times they are able to justify how they are using Strength to avoid the danger. Their armor rating is high enough that most monsters pose little threat, especially if they have one defending that can reduce the damage to the other target. Meanwhile the cleric is throwing resource-free heals to any paltry amount of damage that does get through.
I'm not sure how it has gotten off the rails. Because at this point, I'm wondering if Dungeon World is just impossibly easy - or maybe I've done something really wrong - maybe by assuming that it was easy to run and rules lite and not trying to find dastardly combos or something?

You done something wrong. It appears you've run it like D&D where you put monsters in a dungeon and play is about defeating the monsters. Your players have made decisions in level up that reflect how you're running the game. That this has been to bump STR 3 points to 18 and bump Armor moves tells me that you predominantly presented straight up combats and they've made rational choices.

DW is about complicating play because rolls are weighted to result in partial successes, ie success with cost or complication. This means that, to run it, you have to bring constant pressure on the PCs throughout -- always frame situations in which there's something bad just about to happen and what do they do about it. You then use the result to constantly drive to new fictional framings that keep that pressure up. And, you mix it up -- you don't always go right at the PC's main strengths. You can't use map out an adventure and expect DW to play like D&D does. It'll let you down, pretty much exactly like this. There are a number of good play videos on Dungeon World, I'd suggest you try them out.

It may be the Powered by the Apocalypse games aren't for you. That's fine, it's a pretty different style from D&D, and not everyone's cup of tea. You have to make a big paradigm shift to grok it and get it to play well. If/when you do, it is a pretty easy system to run rules-wise, but it can be hard to adjust to the different expectations the game has of the GM and even the players (who have more responsibility to the system than in trad games). I'm not sure you made an informed selection of DW, here.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Also layer in your GM moves. Beyond just doing damage.
Separate them (Cleric is captured by the gnoll elite guard; other fighter gets swept up in the tide of battle into another room)
Use up their resources (their torches get soaked by all the blood)
Downside to their Class/Race/Equipment (Cleric's God demands sacrifice of some sort from their domain)
Put them in a Spot (So, you can kill this creature, but they'll fall off the cliff and take the awesome magic item with them; or you can kill them but they will also stab you with the poisoned dagger - you'll probably die; but your mates will get the item)

 

[Ovinomancer]

With hack and slash the danger is that the monster does its listed damage.
Defy danger depends on the situation. For example trying to get away from a rock slide might mean no damage, but your foot is caught in debris so you'll have to take a turn to free yourself, being potentially exposed to the same collopase the next turn.

Okay, on the rock slide example, that's a pretty soft move on your part, one I wouldn't go for. Instead, I'd introduce the possibility of a rock slide in the scene framing by describing the scene as one prone to having a rock slide (rotted timbers holding up a bounder ceiling, or a loose slope of scree, etc.). Then, when the rock slide is triggered (likely because they've rolled under a 10 for something else they're doing in the scene), I'd hit them with the rock slide. I'd describe that as a rumbling and small pebbles bouncing down, with the heroes just seeing the larger rocks break free. Then, it's onto them to tell me what they do. If they say, "I Defy Danger!" I'd ask what that looks like, as it sets up what's at stake. Maybe Bob the Fighter says they'll try to dodge the bolders as they fall, a pretty danger defying attempt. Then, we'll test that with a roll. On a 7-9, I'd have that player buried up to the waist in the rockslide, but okay otherwise. That's when the monster shows up, the one who's burrowing caused the rock slide (or whatever). This makes that partial success matter -- it's a significant complication, not a trivial one where they have a momentary trouble.

DW is all about snowballing danger. It's built to get worse for the PCs through play. But, if you don't push, if you go for softer moves, that doesn't happen. PCs in DW are TOUGH. Play accordingly.

However, at this point in your game, it may be too late to shift the paradigm so thoroughly. Might be better to restart, if you're interesting in giving DW another chance. I don't see a good recovery path in your current game.

 

[Retreater]

I've actually done a lot of Roleplaying/Mysteries with this group: they were doing urban exploration in the City of Brass for a few months. But when it comes to blows, they've been unstoppable. Now that they're in a more traditional dungeon setting (an abandoned dwarven subterranean city), there's nothing left to challenge them. I've had liches, dragons, swarms of orcs, powerful undead.
The book doesn't seem to know what it wants to do. It tries to suggest playing it in the style of classic fantasy, heroic games (like D&D) but the system doesn't seem built for it.
I like to think I made an informed decision - or at least as good as I could have at the time - based on the wishes of my players. Something very rules lite that can have satisfying sessions in 2 hours of play, which can be played by voice only and no maps or minis (since it's a voice chat game over distance), keeping with a traditional fantasy feel.
Implementing the GM moves seems a little weird. Like the barbarian rolled snake eyes on a single attack roll, so now I get to separate the whole party? Like that doesn't seem to fit the fiction at all.

 

[JeffB]

With hack and slash the danger is that the monster does its listed damage.
Defy danger depends on the situation. For example trying to get away from a rock slide might mean no damage, but your foot is caught in debris so you'll have to take a turn to free yourself, being potentially exposed to the same collopase the next turn.

Since the fighters can pretty much ignore most damage- stop dealing damage. Look at my example above when the fighter got success with a cost. Do something that puts them- or someone else in danger. Mess with their resources, utilize the terrain to cause an issue. Use Monsters with abilities that Strength can't help- mind Flayers, Magic Users, Medusa, etc.

If you want to throw them up against hack and slash opponents like an an Ettin- on a 7-9 let them do their damage and then have the monster grab the NPC /another character and walk over to throw them off the cliff or another character, or throw's the Fighter into a wall and now they have a debility from a concussion. Or have the Ettin pick the PC up and start pulling him apart like a wishbone- No fighter is as strong as an ettin-- now the Fighter has to talk his way out of it with one of the Ettin's heads.

On the rock slide, the move should be harder...maybe he doesn't get hurt but the rocks bury someone or something important. Or give him a tough choice, he can take the damage with no armor to help by using his body, or the slide gets worse. Maybe he doesnt take damage but got hit on the head and takes a debility for being stunned

EDIT- Dealing damage is something as a GM I stopped almost immediately as my go-to response.

If you have not, please read that DW Guide I linked to. It's enlightening and IMO required reading.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

If you have not, please ready that DW Guide I linked to. It's enlightening and IMO required reading.

True facts

 

[Ovinomancer]

I've actually done a lot of Roleplaying/Mysteries with this group: they were doing urban exploration in the City of Brass for a few months. But when it comes to blows, they've been unstoppable. Now that they're in a more traditional dungeon setting (an abandoned dwarven subterranean city), there's nothing left to challenge them. I've had liches, dragons, swarms of orcs, powerful undead.
The book doesn't seem to know what it wants to do. It tries to suggest playing it in the style of classic fantasy, heroic games (like D&D) but the system doesn't seem built for it.
I like to think I made an informed decision - or at least as good as I could have at the time - based on the wishes of my players. Something very rules lite that can have satisfying sessions in 2 hours of play, which can be played by voice only and no maps or minis (since it's a voice chat game over distance), keeping with a traditional fantasy feel.
Implementing the GM moves seems a little weird. Like the barbarian rolled snake eyes on a single attack roll, so now I get to separate the whole party? Like that doesn't seem to fit the fiction at all.

Your last para here really showcases why DW isn't like D&D at all. It's entirely fiction driven. If the fighter rolls a failure, and you make a DM move because of that, then the fiction of the fighter's move and the outcome are the DM's to craft into making sense. The DM should be picking moves here that can make some sense in the play. This, though, is really why you cannot have normal dungeon maps in DW -- why there has to be blank spaces. That's so that when things like this happen, you have narrative room to add. So, the party is fighting an ogre, and the fighter fails a H&S. You decided to separate the party as your DM move. Cool, the ogre bats the fighter through a wall and down a crevasse in the next room. How did you know there was a room with a crevasse next door? Didn't. It was a blank space until you needed it to be something. Then, it was what you needed to make the fiction work.

DW is really 'play to find out what happens' in the full sense. The DM is playing to find out what happens alongside the players. This means that the game is as much a surprise to the DM as to the players, because it's created in play, not beforehand by the DM. This is a big conceptual hurdle, one that's not easy to make. If it puts you off, don't feel bad, it's not everyone's thing. But, if you play DW otherwise, it's going to disappoint you.

 

[Retreater]

Seems like I'm not doing it "wrong" per the advice you're giving (though I've made it only halfway through the advice PDF at this point). I don't have access to the character sheets at the moment to give concrete examples of the power level. But I think it's pretty safe to say that my group (in one way or another) has broken the system.
Have any of you run for this high of levels (7th level and above)?

 

[SoftDutch]

Seems like I'm not doing it "wrong" per the advice you're giving (though I've made it only halfway through the advice PDF at this point). I don't have access to the character sheets at the moment to give concrete examples of the power level. But I think it's pretty safe to say that my group (in one way or another) has broken the system.
Have any of you run for this high of levels (7th level and above)?

I have run many campaigns all the way to level 10. I had the same kind of issues you are having at first because I was treating Dungeon World like it was D&D. You're players have not managed to break the game. The danger is only as real as the fiction, its not really about numbers. You say that you have been playing in line with the advice you have been given but also say that you rely primarily on dealing damage for partial successes.. both of these statements cannot be true. Are you truly here to seek advice for your game or are you just venting? If you are here for advice then re-read this thread, its a goldmine and your next DW game will run a lot better. Also fix the cleric issue by making "draw unwanted attention" something bad. It sounds like your cleric is casting and any time they don't roll a 10+ choosing that outcome so that they can continue using their healing spell. If they always choose the same negative consequence then you didn't make it negative enough.