Dungeons & Discourse: Atheism (and related)

[Mishihari Lord]

Why would religious people in a D&D setting consider atheists heretics, or blasphemous, or anything like that? D&D worlds are full of people who believe in actual continuously manifesting dieties in direct competition to their own. Wouldn't atheist be the least of their concern? Wouldn't atheist be practically mundane by comparison?

If the campaign is such that you have to worship a god to reach a positive afterlife, then any right thinking believer is going to be after a proselyting atheist. "That orc? Yah, he'll kill you, but at least you go to the seven heavens. But that guy? That inoffensive looking guy over there talking to your friend? Fail your will check against him and you'll burn in the nine hells forever."

 

[Henry]

While a mortal who actually didn't believe in the supernatural at all in a D&D world is silly, I could certainly comprehend a mortal who believes that the existing gods are not worthy of worship. Doing a little wikipedia-crawling, I found the term "Ignostic", which sounds closer to this concept: A person who thinks that others assume too much about the gods or divinity itself. That, or nonreligious, perhaps?

As I said -- Thor or Odin being too petty to be deserving of worship? I could see that. That they didn't exist, and didn't send that worshipper to kill that 100 ft tall giant last week? That would be kinda silly.

 

[Celebrim]

While a mortal who actually didn't believe in the supernatural at all in a D&D world is silly...

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, and agree, but I've always found that term 'supernatural' just a bit awkward. As I see it, ghosts exist in the D&D world and they have tangible attributes and studiable characteristics. The ethereal plane isn't unnatural, but an integral and normal part of the cosmology and physics of that universe. In otherwords, either something doesn't exist, or else it does exist and per force must be accepted into the realm of those things you consider natural. I seriously doubt that the people of the D&D world have a word that means 'supernatural', and for that matter I'm not sure what the word means in this world either at least in the sense that it is commonly used.

As I said -- Thor or Odin being too petty to be deserving of worship? I could see that. That they didn't exist, and didn't send that worshipper to kill that 100 ft tall giant last week? That would be kinda silly.

This raises the question of, "What do you mean by a god?" It's possible to believe that Thor and Odin exist, but that they - however mighty - don't fit the definition of gods. You could have a person in the position of saying, "There are no gods." and meaning, "Sure, there is Thor and that Odin bloke, but they aren't really gods."

 

[I'm A Banana]

a mortal who actually didn't believe in the supernatural at all in a D&D world is silly

It's interesting, because in a D&D world, the supernatural...isn't. It doesn't take a lot of "faith" or "ignorance" to believe in fairies and magic. It's a concrete reality that affects your daily life. The "gods" fall into this category, too. It requires no belief, no faith, to accept it as real. It would be like not believing in electricity, or gravity, or climate change, or evolution, or something. It's clearly a thing that is.

So in a D&D world, not even clerics have what we might call "faith." Divine magic is a route to power like any other kind of magic. They don't need to believe, they just need to obey, worship, etc.

There's nothing, metaphysically, in a D&D, that people believe that might be doubted. Similarly, since the metaphysical is concrete, you don't have to express faith in its veracity.

A "distant gods" setting (such as Eberron) gets a little closer to the world as it actually works, but even there, miracles are known to happen to the faithful. The source of them is just more murky.

Of course, atheism isn't necessarily incompatible with the supernatural. You can believe in ghosts and aliens and psychic energy and whatever else without necessarily believing in a god.

Kind of hinges on what a "god" is, I guess. In D&D, a god is mostly just a creature who can give magic to those they choose. The distinguishing feature is that personification. Perhaps D&D atheists don't believe the personification is valid -- that there's divine magic, just as there's arcane magic, but it doesn't need to be mediated through a divinity.

 

[Celebrim]

So in a D&D world, not even clerics have what we might call "faith."

For the record, very few real world religions take much stock in 'faith' either. And those that do, don't use the term to mean "believing in the existance of god(s)". Belief in the existance of god is not considered a virtue by any real world religion I'm aware of. You get much closer to the meaning of the term "faith" as it is used in the religious sense when you use terms like "the faithful", although that doesn't really capture it completely either.

Kind of hinges on what a "god" is, I guess. In D&D, a god is mostly just a creature who can give magic to those they choose. The distinguishing feature is that personification. Perhaps D&D atheists don't believe the personification is valid -- that there's divine magic, just as there's arcane magic, but it doesn't need to be mediated through a divinity.

Good thought. I need to add that (or a variation) to my list of common heresies.

Although on Sartha, that would be a harder one to swallow, because incarnation is a fairly common occurance you still have the out that you need not necessarily believe in god incarnate based on someone elses testimony that they have seen it. Miracles per se are fairly common and easily attestable, but face to face contact with a god is rare enough that a skeptic could doubt it or blame it on trickery either by mortal or spiritual agents or lack of objectivity by the believer. Additionally, it fits well with the some variations of the monoism heresy (all the various gods are just manifestations of a single force).

 

[LurkAway]

I was thinking that:
- priests of no specific deity can still access the same divine spells
- priests and cultists of inferior entities and even dead gods can still access divine spells
- in Eberron, priests of the 'wrong' alignment can still access divine spells
- gods are credited for providing divine spells, making the crops grow, etc. while simultaneously unable to direct that same enormous level of power towards their own ambitions (ie., chained gods can't free themselves, parties of gods can't kill titans) or even self-preservation (ie., gods can be killed by mortal trespassers)

So when you assume that game mechanics translate into objective truths in D&D fiction, then there is a definitely a divine 'spell delivery system' that is more-or-less independant of the gods themselves, even though they take all the credit for it. When you have a pretty reliable conveyer belt delivering you the goods regardless of your faith or your benefactor, I think a lot of people would start the question -- is my god the source of all of this or just a sort of overglamorized steward.

It's arguable that divine spells is not the primary reason for faith in a god. However, they do take all the credit for it, which is suspicious and dishonest if it's not true (especially from a good god). Secondly, for me, the divine spells are both evidence and reward for your faith and *compensation* for all the terrible tangible evil in the world (esp. any tolerance of evil churches) and so divine spells would be, I think, a primary reason to respect and worship the good gods.

Faith may not be so easily shaken and undermined by bad things in the world, and the struggle of good over evil is a continuous process. Yet it is a bit different when you've given your heart and soul to your god for divine spells and hope and protection, and your filthy Orcus-worshipping neighbour receives the same boons and tries to wither your crops and kill you and raise you from the dead to serve as his own zombie farmhand. Miracles are a huge source of faith, and when you realize the other side gets the same level of miracles, it could be quite faith-shattering. Conversely, faith in your god would be strengthened when your filthy Orcus-worshipping neighbour can barely utter a cantrip and you shake your head with pity confirming that Orcus is a petty demon who cannot reach out to his faithful like your god can.

I know that as a game, it's less than flexibile to penalize players for not wanting to choose a specific god or specific pantheon, or choosing a lesser underpowered god (and thus having a limit on max spell level). However, that does have implications on the fiction that, for me, suggest that atheism of some sort is objectively correct and that doubt about the gods may be quite systemic, especially among the worldly class.

OTOH, a D&D character disenchanted with the gods might not be fully atheistic but instead wonder if a greater god is responsible for the multiverse and the divine spell delivery system, and this uber-god doesn't seek to be worshipped for some reason, and I think this has been alluded to with Ao in FR, but I don't think D&D fiction will ever officially go there.

 

[Umbran]

It's interesting, because in a D&D world, the supernatural...isn't. It doesn't take a lot of "faith" or "ignorance" to believe in fairies and magic. It's a concrete reality that affects your daily life. The "gods" fall into this category, too.

Do they?

In the Forgotten Realms, where avatars of the gods have blatantly walked on the planet in recent history, sure, I'll buy that. But that's not the case in all fantasy worlds.

You see magic and its results. The fey come to trade on market day. The gods - do you hear directly from them in an unambiguous way? In some worlds yes, in some no. I don't think it is safe to generalize like you're doing. Especially when some editions of the rules will give clerical power to characters who don't believe in a "god" as such.

 

[Janx]

IFaith may not be so easily shaken and undermined by bad things in the world, and the struggle of good over evil is a continuous process. Yet it is a bit different when you've given your heart and soul to your god for divine spells and hope and protection, and your filthy Orcus-worshipping neighbour receives the same boons and tries to wither your crops and kill you and raise you from the dead to serve as his own zombie farmhand. Miracles are a huge source of faith, and when you realize the other side gets the same level of miracles, it could be quite faith-shattering. Conversely, faith in your god would be strengthened when your filthy Orcus-worshipping neighbour can barely utter a cantrip and you shake your head with pity confirming that Orcus is a petty demon who cannot reach out to his faithful like your god can.

Historically speaking, I'm not sure this is true. Witch hunts, etc have had no problem with "OMG! Evil is among us and is the cause of all our current problems!" and a thusly riled populace bands together on the strength of their religious fervor to combat and burn the evil out.

The gist is, general evil doesn't make the general population question their faith. Nor does an identified Evil Presence cause the population to question their faith. They all quickly group up so as not to be mistaken as part of the Evil, and then they light the torches.

Now some people may take the existance or presence of evil as proof that their religion is wrong. Most just see it as the continual war that good fights over evil, and that evil is always ready to claim their soul if they are not vigilant.

 

[LurkAway]

The gist is, general evil doesn't make the general population question their faith. Nor does an identified Evil Presence cause the population to question their faith.

I agree with you but I feel that the point was taken out of context, and that we're talking about 2 different issues. To get back on track, if cultists worshipped Orcus but didn't actually receive any or much divine spells, and instead had to rely on rituals or arcane magic, then this would reinforce that the divine spell delivery system is more exclusive to your faith and not a free-for-all.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You see magic and its results. The fey come to trade on market day. The gods - do you hear directly from them in an unambiguous way? In some worlds yes, in some no. I don't think it is safe to generalize like you're doing. Especially when some editions of the rules will give clerical power to characters who don't believe in a "god" as such.

I did say in the same post:

A "distant gods" setting (such as Eberron) gets a little closer to the world as it actually works, but even there, miracles are known to happen to the faithful. The source of them is just more murky.

And in a couple of other posts, I've made the same point. I was just talking about the "implied setting of D&D," which has things like hit points and planar domains for gods. I endeavored to mention that other settings follow different assumptions (and even pointed out what "atheism" may look like. Not generalizing at all!

To get back on track, if cultists worshipped Orcus but didn't actually receive any or much divine spells, and instead had to rely on rituals or arcane magic, then this would reinforce that the divine spell delivery system is more exclusive to your faith and not a free-for-all.

Yeah, I guess to me that indicates that there's something different about Orcus and other gods (there's not much difference between worshipers...well, at least in that they are devoted to their "god") -- that somehow Orcus isn't capable of granting the spells that the worshipers seek.

Which would mean, in such a setting, that faith isn't enough. What you worship also has to be a "true" god. Rather than coming from your faith, divine magic comes from the god as a reward for your faith. Which begs the question: what do gods get from faith?

It also makes "atheism" pretty threatening to the divine power source in general. If it takes an anthropomorphic personification to award you for faith, if there's none of those, there's no divine magic.