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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

JEB

Explorer
And while I am not a huge fan of slippery slope arguments, anyone who is vaguely familiar with the older materials knows that this won't end with OA.
Mr. Kwan already pointed to the Kara-Tur campaign setting as another product that should no longer be sold, so he definitely doesn't want it limited to OA. I would assume the entire line of OA supplements and adventures would also need to be removed to meet his requirements, since they all rely on OA and Kara-Tur.

While he didn't find Rokugan as offensive, it looks like he was also critical of 3E OA (and it still has "Oriental" in the title), so I wouldn't be surprised to see that go as well. Not sure if the removal request would extend to the third-party 3E Rokugan books, but they do have "Oriental Adventures" on the cover, so it's possible.

And I also wouldn't be surprised if, after his analysis of Al-Qadim is complete, that product line is also deemed too problematic to keep.
 

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You don't see the problem with you deciding several cultures getting mashed together is an issue but then talking about "Asian people"?
Yes, I'm a lazy typer. That is an issue and I should try and do better.


Also, why do you think D&D would still exist if European cultures had to be handled with the same kind or respect than what people demand from non-European cultures?
D&D and FR is a huge mix of European stereotypes from different cultures and ages. If you had to apply the same kind of respect to them than what is demanded here you can throw out D&D completely.
If DnD can't exist without being offensive, then it shouldn't exist.

I believe DnD can exist without being offensive, I think we can do better. If the european communities want to band together and demand more accurate representations, then we should do it.


Edit
Another question occurred to me. If you rewrote OA today, with cultural consultants and sensitivity readers, and you named it respectfully and treated the cultures and material with proper love and consideration - if you did all that and then a number of people of Asian descent still found that the work was offensive, what is the expectation?
That we should double check what they find offensive, and triple check with those consultants about how big of a deal it is.

Sure, some people are never going to be satisfied, but that doesn't mean we should never try to do better.

You should probably look into that a little more then.

Kara Tur has multiple regions like Core Faerun, though not as many. They represent China and more than one period/style of Japan and then something else I forget. Wa, Shou, and whatever. That is one of the criticisms of Kara Tur, lazy China, Lazy Japan setting plopped down in D&D land.

OA 1e has what, five pages on the setting in the book, then there is a boxed set on the setting and multiple module/sourcebooks (seven I think?) fleshing out the various different regions.

Rokugan is a smaller Japanse style area depicting a sole Japanesish magical samurai land with a little bit of other asian but clearly strongly Japanese samurai themed core.
I've never read or had access to any of the material, so I'm glad it isn't as bad as I was thinking. Still, I'm sure no one disagrees that it couldn't be better.

Do you want me to use "it"?
They is generally better

Mass access (through the internet, or through multiple copies) is exactly how you maintain history. You don't have to be a REAL HISTORIAN to understand that suppression and limited copies leads to eventual disappearance. That's a lesson older than the Library of Alexandria.
Wasn't thinking, but it is Free, online, for anybody to find.
 
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One thing I find interesting about all this, is that some people with whom I've nearly violently disagreed over, oh, warlords and metagaming and goal-and-approach, have views more aligned with mine on these topics. And vice-versa. And it makes me realize how ridiculously unimportant those other debates are.
 

Derren

Hero
I believe DnD can exist without being offensive, I think we can do better. If the european communities want to band together and demand more accurate representations, then we should do it.
And who is the "European Communities"? And when do we get to the point when it changes from being one or two guys complaining to the net to the whole culture has spoken?

Also I am pretty sure the link you posted is illegal.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
As a product owner with a background in QA testing over the past 17 years, this isn't how QA testing works. Acererak is pretty close though.

QA doesn't get involved in code development. Or they shouldn't. It can color biases and create blind spots. The client works with the PM/PO to create requirements of what they want. These are brought to the DEV team to develop the code. Then the QA team goes in and validates that the code is working as designed. Not working as they hope, or how they want, or anything else. But traced directly to the requirement. If it's not, then you need to find out why? Ambiguous requirement? Bad code? client made a mistake in what they wanted? Etc. But QA does not get involved in developing code to telling the client how they would draft requirements. They most certainly don't review code before it hits the test environment or try to find bugs early. In fact, it's better if the QA person doesn't know how to code. Remember, a QA person is doing their testing from 2 perspectives: functional, and user acceptance. I.e., they want to make sure the system is working, and from a user's perspective. They don't need to know code for that. One of the fastest ways to get into trouble is when QA starts making assumptions about how something should work. Test to the requirement. The requirement is your bible.

That being said, a QA person will either find bugs, or they won't. It's entirely based on testing. No QA person goes in trying to intentionally find bugs or to not find bugs. They simply think of every possible workflow scenario, and test to make sure all of those work.
I've been a QA Engineer and then and SDET for over 7 years now and while Black Box testing will always have it's place there is a great deal that a QA can learn from knowing the code base, like where to target regression testing for a specific change. Not too mention it is also useful if you want your Automated e2e tests to target vulnerable areas for the code. Overall Gray Box and White Box testing are becoming more prevalent than ever. You'll also want to be technically savvy to do Security and Performance Testing. For example The fact that your End User does not consider DOM XSS attacks doesn't mean you shouldn't.

QA has become a lot more than UAT to the point where if you are not learning these things as a QA you are severely limiting the Opportunities you can apply for and Salary you could get. I've doubled my pay since learning to White Box test and write Automated tests and Security and Load testing.

Even outside of the technical there have been many times in my career where a PO or business analyst has presented Feature/Epic/Story that they think is what the client wants, but though questioning from a senior QA with domain knowledge reveals it isn't what has really been asked for. A good QA (and dev for that matter) help a BA vet requirements before work is done. This is often referred to as a "3 Amigos meeting".

Edit: But we have now majorly digressed
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It took literally 30 seconds for me to find it in the Boston Public Library's website. Have a nice day.
Fine for you in Boston. :)

Right now I can't even legally get to Boston (the Can-US border is closed); and even if I could Boston is a mighty long way from here.

I wonder how many other libraries have a copy? My guess would be very few indeed...
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
What about the american culture producing disrespectful content about european cultures? (and vice versa)?
As a person with italian heritage, I get my regular share of disrespectful content in american movies and sitcoms, from old Marx Brothers movies to Friends, just to name the first examples coming to my mind. But I could NEVER claim this is even remotely equivalent to the disrespectful content that african-american or asian people get in addition to being discriminated in a lot of very serious aspects of their lives. Because despite whatever disrespectful content, I still enjoy my white privilege, and they don't.
 


Retreater

Legend
Career librarian here.
9 copies of OA (3e) available in libraries across the U.S. IL: Chillicothe Pub Lib; IN: Allen Co Pub Lib, Marian University; OH: Barberton Pub Lib, Columbus Metro Pub Lib, Washington-Centerville, Wittenberg Univ; VA: Amherst Co, Roanoke Co.
23 copies of OA (1e) available in libraries.
Our Interlibrary Loan process usually takes between 1-2 weeks.

The book is available, even in hard copy, if you want it enough.
 

This is the same stupid argument made by the pro-confederate statues people. Getting rid of something that is offensive isn't "erasing history", it's just admitting you did something/portrayed something in an offensive manner, and apologizing for it.
Also amusing: the same people who keep defending this content as "just a make-believe fantasy game about imaginary people" also claim that it's "erasing history" to stop selling it.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Aleena died for your sins.
This is the same stupid argument made by the pro-confederate statues people. Getting rid of something that is offensive isn't "erasing history", it's just admitting you did something/portrayed something in an offensive manner, and apologizing for it.
That is not the same at all. That is a shameful analogy.

Confederate statutes are public displays. They are put up on public grounds, and they served a certain purpose (a terrible purpose that I will not go into due to site rules).

The people that are honored by governments (and hence, all of us) with statues is not, in any way, shape, or form, the same as attempting to get rid of prior books.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Career librarian here.
9 copies of OA (3e) available in libraries across the U.S. IL: Chillicothe Pub Lib; IN: Allen Co Pub Lib, Marian University; OH: Barberton Pub Lib, Columbus Metro Pub Lib, Washington-Centerville, Wittenberg Univ; VA: Amherst Co, Roanoke Co.
23 copies of OA (1e) available in libraries.
Our Interlibrary Loan process usually takes between 1-2 weeks.

The book is available, even in hard copy, if you want it enough.
My guess of "very few" was correct, it seems: out of the hundreds if not thousands of libraries in the US, 1e OA is available in 23.

Still, good to know any D&D books have found their way into public libraries anywhere - not something I'd have really expected.
 

That is not the same at all. That is a shameful analogy.

Confederate statutes are public displays. They are put up on public grounds, and they served a certain purpose (a terrible purpose that I will not go into due to site rules).

The people that are honored by governments (and hence, all of us) with statues is not, in any way, shape, or form, the same as attempting to get rid of prior books.
Prior books from nearly-nonplayed editions that contain offensive themes.

It is the same. You guys are saying "It's erasing history" the same way that pro-confederates are. You don't erase history by removing statues or taking down books. History is in museums and history books, in which D&D books will probably never be mentioned in.
 

Retreater

Legend
My guess of "very few" was correct, it seems: out of the hundreds if not thousands of libraries in the US, 1e OA is available in 23.

Still, good to know any D&D books have found their way into public libraries anywhere - not something I'd have really expected.
My library carries a few (all 5e). But then again, there's a D&D fan ordering the books. ;)
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Also amusing: the same people who keep defending this content as "just a make-believe fantasy game about imaginary people" also claim that it's "erasing history" to stop selling it.
A lot of reasoning is motivated reasoning. That’s okay. But it means that appeals to logic or reason won’t be effective. Try to find the value the motivated reasoner is defending/espousing and see whether they can be reached that way instead. I mean, if you’re interested in understanding or persuading.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Just as a note, folks, we are aware that there are some ‘long time’ posters who pretty much only post on the forums in order to object when they get a whiff of a hint of inclusivity; they don’t tend to participate otherwise, or talk about RPGs otherwise on this site. If you’re one of those people who only pop up in this type of thread, we’ll likely be asking you to leave in the near future.
 

Also amusing: the same people who keep defending this content as "just a make-believe fantasy game about imaginary people" also claim that it's "erasing history" to stop selling it.
Yeah. Extremely hypocritical.

Honest question to all of you complaining about this: Were you going to buy it? Do you even still play those editions? What's the big deal?
 

ART!

Adventurer
Here you go: ...snip...


Free, online, for anybody to find.
Illegally.

I mean, I suspect someone still owns the copyright to the contents of that book, despite its being out of print.

Mod Edit:Next time you complain about someone linking to copyrighted materials.. don't include the link in your own post too! ~Umbran
 
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I would personally propose a bit of a 'Harry Potter approach'. Do cede terms to 'them' (here: oriental - there: Voldemort). If a racist wants to be derogatory towards someone, they will, and they will find words. But let the problem be the racist's actions, his attitude, his demeanor. Don't settle the weight on an (at least in this case) neutrally descriptive word. That only strengthens THEIR arsenal of words and shrinks OUR ability to use colorful, poetic descriptive languages.
(Disclaimer: I generally prefer to stay away from the decisive 'us vs. them' mind set.)
 

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