WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Derren]

As I said to @Danzauker, if you wish to complain about depictions of White culture made by White culture, you are more than able to. And you quite possibly will find some people to agree with you.

You just can't say "Well, I'm not offended by White culture stereotyping White culture, so no one else gets to be offended either." You don't get to make that call.

Ok, then I officially complain.

Now what? Should WotC pull all books stereotyping European culture?

 

[Aldarc]

It’s worth pointing out, IMHO, that there was enough clamor about the historical inaccuracy of Vikings wearing horned helmets, that the art style for Norse-inspired cultures in TTRPGs has lessened in its use of that trope. So I do think the whole “but what about European cultures?” kinda ignores the quiet transformation that has already been underway. Not to mention that there are more European publishers who are creating fantasy tabletop content centered around their respective cultures rather than rely on American bastardizations thereof.

 

[Sacrosanct]

My DNA ancestry results are mostly German, with a heavy dose of British, Dutch, and Italian. It's hard for me to get upset about depictions of European culture because as my DNA results illustrate, for 1000 years Europeans and invaded and influenced each other's cultures a lot. Yes, there is British culture, and there is Italian culture, but there are many things that overlap between them due to 1000 years of invasion. About the only thing I can't say is, "I'm a proud German!" without people making some assumptions Thanks again, Hitler...

 

[DEFCON 1]

Is being condescent to people you don't know anything about admitted in this forum?

Answering the question anyway: racism, just not to stray to far apart from the subject. Real racism, I mean. People hurt. People called names. People denied access to places and things. People deined access to culture and work. People treated like they're different just because of skin coloror country of origin. That bothers and still bothers me.

So you are upset at overt racism. Gotcha.

But covert or unintentional racism is okay? Or prejudicial thought that only some people feel is upsetting is okay?

I'm just trying to find the line here. When things go from not being important enough for some people to find problematic to when it actually is problematic and needs to be stopped. You apparently know where the dividing line is. But I would ask why we would use your opinion for it?

 

[Todd Roybark]

This forum hasn’t been just for 5e for a while now. It’s for all editions of D&D

No disagreement there, but as predicted this is not a thread about the D&D books Oriental Adventures but rather the word “Oriental”.

This thread will live longer in the General category. Otherwise, the thread will deviate from the Dire Bare’s original post, and Morrus will swoop in with red ink and close thread as repetitive....
see the thread about the removal of the Community episode for example.

Edward Said in his 1978 book Orientalism, influenced my thinking. The book holds up, a very interesting read.

Orientalism (book) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The term “Orient” essentially meant East of Europe and was applied to Persia, Armenia, Central Asia....and then morphed into a synonym of Asia.

It is not a term of precision. Oriental, if used as a descriptive term: essentially means mystical, strange, foreign and by implication....not rational...in the same way that a charismatic relationship with the Tetragrammaton in Abrahamic religions is characterized as a direct connection to the divine, and not inferred by reason.

As a descriptor, it has some baggage, and some object to it’s usage.

Personally, a vague term, that has a complicated history, lacks a universal definition, is not very descriptive, and is offensive to some, is probably best avoided.

This is also, only tangentially applicable to D&D.

To be fair, we have a group of people that are asking a particular book seller to stop selling digital copies of a book that has been out of print, physically, for years.

This is akin to a group asking Walmart to stop, or start selling D&D products.....more a fit for the General RPG Forum, in my singular opinion.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think that this is the most horrible idea possible, and reading it reminds me of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas of Bamyan. I wish it was hyperbole, but it's not.

I fully support the making D&D more inclusive, and I strongly believe that using the term Oriental to refer to a group of people is wrong; in addition, it should seem obvious today that Oriental Adventures is exceptionally problematic in many ways.

That said, we cannot ... oh my ... whitewash history by just removing things we now find objectionable.
We don't get to erase the past.
We can deal with it.
We can understand it.
We can talk about it.

But we don't get to just blow it up and move on. The past happened. There was a time when Oriental Adventures was perfectly acceptable.

Almost every single thing from that time is going to have issues. Most of the books have art that is problematic. There is a random harlot table in the DMG. Sections of books have parts that can be considered racist by today's standards. The racial antipathy table in the PHB could probably be published in a racist manifesto today.

...and so on.

There is absolutely no way that a book called "Oriental Adventures" should be published today. There is no way that a book that throws together certain stereotypes without consultation should be released. And that's important to understand moving forward.

There are multiple ways that this can be dealt with. Perhaps a .pdf that is provided with the book that explains why the material is problematic. Maybe WoTC can agree to give their proceeds to an appropriate charity. Or both! There are multiple ways to deal with problematic material from the past in a critical and appropriate manner that does not involve suppression.

 

[Xenonnonex]

No disagreement there, but as predicted this is not a thread about the D&D books Oriental Adventures but rather the word “Oriental”.

This thread will live longer in the General category. Otherwise, the thread will deviate from the Dire Bare’s original post, and Morrus will swoop in with red ink and close thread as repetitive....
see the thread about the removal of the Community episode for example.

Edward Said in his 1978 book Orientalism, influenced my thinking. The book holds up, a very interesting read.

Orientalism (book) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The term “Orient” essentially meant East of Europe and was applied to Persia, Armenia, Central Asia....and then morphed into a synonym of Asia.

It is not a term of precision. Oriental, if used as a descriptive term: essentially means mystical, strange, foreign and by implication....not rational...in the same way that a charismatic relationship with the Tetragrammaton in Abrahamic religions is characterized as a direct connection to the divine, and not inferred by reason.

As a descriptor, it has some baggage, and some object to it’s usage.

Personally, a vague term, that has a complicated history, lacks a universal definition, is not very descriptive, and is offensive to some, is probably best avoided.

This is also, only tangentially applicable to D&D.

To be fair, a group of people are asking a particular book seller to stop selling digital copies of a book that has been out of print, physically, for years.

This is akin to a group asking Walmart to stop, or start selling D&D products.....more a fit for the General RPG Forum, in my singular opinion.

The word also has connotations of exoticizm and fetish fuel.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Ok, then I officially complain.

Now what? Should WotC pull all books stereotyping European culture?

I dunno. You're the one who wants it done. You ask me.

Either WotC takes your complaint seriously or they don't. But I guess the question is just how serious is your complaint? And how far are you willing to work to see your complaint result in tangible change? I'm sure it won't be easy. But hey... it only took the people who found Oriental Adventures problematic 30+ YEARS to see someone actually start taking their issues somewhat seriously, so I guess you need to start working a little longer and a little harder to see your complaint come to fruition. But I have faith you can do it! Get at it!

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think that this is the most horrible idea possible, and reading it reminds me of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas of Bamyan. I wish it was hyperbole, but it's not.

I fully support the making D&D more inclusive, and I strongly believe that using the term Oriental to refer to a group of people is wrong; in addition, it should seem obvious today that Oriental Adventures is exceptionally problematic in many ways.

That said, we cannot ... oh my ... whitewash history by just removing things we now find objectionable.
We don't get to erase the past.
We can deal with it.
We can understand it.
We can talk about it.

But we don't get to just blow it up and move on. The past happened. There was a time when Oriental Adventures was perfectly acceptable.

Almost every single thing from that time is going to have issues. Most of the books have art that is problematic. There is a random harlot table in the DMG. Sections of books have parts that can be considered racist by today's standards. The racial antipathy table in the PHB could probably be published in a racist manifesto today.

...and so on.

There is absolutely no way that a book called "Oriental Adventures" should be published today. There is no way that a book that throws together certain stereotypes without consultation should be released. And that's important to understand moving forward.

There are multiple ways that this can be dealt with. Perhaps a .pdf that is provided with the book that explains why the material is problematic. Maybe WoTC can agree to give their proceeds to an appropriate charity. Or both! There are multiple ways to deal with problematic material from the past in a critical and appropriate manner that does not involve suppression.

I can see your point, and I can agree with some of the areas you're coming from, but this is very much hyperbole. The OA book is not an iconic cultural icon that's been around for a thousand years. To compare the two as equivalent is literally the definition of hyperbole.

 

[wingsandsword]

It has pointed out repeatedly here that the complaint is not sudden. The only sudden thing is your awareness of it. It is hardly their fault if you weren't paying attention.

Not being aware of a small fringe group of people complaining isn't a fault of mine. It's not reasonable to expect people to be aware of, or take seriously, every fringe group of gamers shouting that this or that offends them.