WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[DEFCON 1]

Hold on a minute there. That label was enough for some pretty big outlets like Walmart to refuse to stock the material - and that most likely did affect potential sales. Same with NC-17 ratings for movies because big rental places like Blockbuster would refuse to carry them. Warning labels and ratings may seem pretty small potatoes, but they can have significant effects thanks to the nature of the marketplace in which they appear.

That is a valid point. But I will say in rebuttal that while the labels did perhaps affect some people financially with less sales in the short-term... there was no long-term "slippery slope" of stopping people from producing said products in the future. We did not see the brakes of our societal mores get slammed down. And in fact... when we look at the things that 2 Live Crew or ADC did that were considered "offensive" at the time... they are quaint in comparison to what we have right now. The overt sexuality of "As Nasty As They Wanna Be"? You find things more overtly sexualized on National TV nowadays. And of course in terms of Clay... the irony is that people are now still offended by his work, but the offense has changed. It ain't his naughty language and overt mentions of sexual themes, but rather his blatant casual misogyny and treatment of women that people are offended by.

So no... if there was any "slippery slope" in relation to the Parental Advisory - Explicit Lyrics tag, it was purely economic in nature, not social. If anyone's intentions in making a product were held back due to the tag... it's because they were afraid of making less money off of it, not because they were now no longer allowed to make it in the first place.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think part of the problem is that it's not all that obvious, particularly when it comes to things like food, hair styles, and marginal pop-culture products. Where are the lines drawn between cultural diffusion and cultural appropriation? That's not obvious.

I was referring specifically to the argument about lack of symmetry. E.g. that it's ok to be wildly inaccurate with vikings, but not with samurai.

But as @Umbran said:

• It's mostly people of European descent writing this stuff.
• People of European descent are not marginalized (especially in the primary markets for these games) based on these stereotypes.

When China becomes the only superpower, and northern Europeans are barely scraping by cleaning their toilets, and most RPGs are written and played in China, and this is rationalized with a stereotype of northern Europeans as howling, illiterate savages....then we can complain about the portrayal of Vikings.

Probably to about the same reception as seen in this thread.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It has pointed out repeatedly here that the complaint is not sudden. The only sudden thing is your awareness of it. It is hardly their fault if you weren't paying attention.

As I explained a couple pages ago, I had friends asking me to not use "oriental" back in the 80's.

 

[Danzauker]

So because you weren't willing to do it, nobody else should either? Okay then. So to make things easier, why don't you post a list of the things that have bothered you over the last 30 years, so everyone else can also know what they're allowed to be upset about?

Is being condescent to people you don't know anything about admitted in this forum?

Answering the question anyway: racism, just not to stray to far apart from the subject. Real racism, I mean. People hurt. People called names. People denied access to places and things. People deined access to culture and work. People treated like they're different just because of skin coloror country of origin. That bothers and still bothers me.

 

[Umbran]

I think part of the problem is that it's not all that obvious, particularly when it comes to things like food, hair styles, and marginal pop-culture products. Where are the lines drawn between cultural diffusion and cultural appropriation? That's not obvious.

Perhaps. Let us take that as a given for a moment.

When faced with a request about a nuanced issue, voluble and total rejection of that request, and dismissive statements about those who made it, are not appropriate. It is very difficult to have a nuanced and thoughtful discussion when folks around us are shouting ad hominem dismissals about the folks making or supporting the request.

So, sorry if folks are not able to engage as you'd prefer - there's a lot of shouting that has to be dealt with first.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Have you seen any anime?
Also why limit it to those cultures? What about the american culture producing disrespectful content about european cultures? (and vice versa)?

As I said to @Danzauker, if you wish to complain about depictions of White culture made by White culture, you are more than able to. And you quite possibly will find some people to agree with you.

You just can't say "Well, I'm not offended by White culture stereotyping White culture, so no one else gets to be offended either." You don't get to make that call.

 

[Enrico Poli1]

What do I think?

I think that, virtually speaking, it's basically this

This new "Race Panic" is no better than the old Satanic Panic in the 80's

Exactly.

 

[briggart]

No, it is Jerusalem. At the time the word was coined Constantinople was the capital of the Roman Empire which spanned from the Balkans to Asia Minor. No one would be arbitrarily dividing the nation between "Orient" and "Occident".

A bit of nitpicking, but arbitrarily* dividing a nation between "Orient" and "Occident" it's exactly what the Roman Empire did, starting with the tetrarchy under Diocletianus.

Anyway, the term Oriens and related ones were "always" part of Latin language (it literally means "rising", likewise Occidens means "setting"), so I'm not sure what you mean that the word was coined when Constantinople was capital. I think that what was viewed as the meeting point of Orient and Occident has varied over time, and also depending on context.

*Clearly the division in two empires was not totally arbitrary, as it traced cultural, logistic, economic and military reasons, but I think the point is clear.

 

[Bertil]

Promoting inclusion and not reproducing racistic stuff is great.

But now we are talking about making cultural history and myths taboo? Out of some kind of respect for national cultural pride?

For me that’s something the alt-right does, and quite the opposite of inclusion and antiracism. That would mean trying to reverse the postmodern cultural blender that has coloured all fiction the last 70 years to some degree, and certainly not always in a negative way. One could even claim that it has promoted a sense of global inclusion and erasing other-ness.

So, putting disclaimers on old material and making darn shure that new products don’t use offensive language and so on is great. But doing it because someone feels that the national/cultural history of their specific country is treated badly and don’t give an accurate depiction of their culture - in fiction! - is taking it too far, and is contraproductive to inclusion. We should bring walls down, not build them up.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Is being condescent to people you don't know anything about admitted in this forum?

Answering the question anyway: racism, just not to stray to far apart from the subject. Real racism, I mean. People hurt. People called names. People denied access to places and things. People deined access to culture and work. People treated like they're different just because of skin coloror country of origin. That bothers and still bothers me.

Oriental in condescending terms and used as insult is part of real racism. People of Asian descent have asked not be to called it.
Respect this we should.