WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Wulfhelm

Explorer
Very true, but as you say, Bushido wasn't all THAT accurate either. Funny how that works, you get some people writing about a culture they have passing familiarity with, and they often get things wrong. Frankly even if you were an expert on Japanese culture, probably any 5 random Japanese people would laugh at many of your misconceptions. Culture is complicated and subtle.
That is true, but for historical or historical-inspired games the playing field is usually a lot more level because the past is almost as much of a foreign country to present-day cultural "insiders" as it is to "outsiders".

If it came to, say, writing a supplement set during the reign of the Staufers, I would trust a British academic with even just moderate expertise in the topic over a random German. Or a random Italian.
Basically, if you want to write a historical supplement or an inspired supplement that "rings true" with authenticity, you need to put in the research, no matter what your citizenship or your ancestry is. Of course, that is often easier for natives of the countries in question due to one simple reason: Much of the quality research is going to be available only in the language of that country - and depending on the time period in question and the linguistic developments since, they may even be able to read primary sources.
Cultural familiarity, i.e. the ability to quickly unpack descriptions of past customs by reference to the presence, may also help, but it is IME secondary.
 

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There's unfortunately a third option.

What if the artist wanted EXACTLY traw a panda with a katana. That was his intention all the time. He knew pandas are not japanese, but, hey, he loves pandas and katana and had the occasion to draw them.

In this completely hypothetical situation, the marketing guy comes and says. "wonderful drawing, but you must do it again. I know it's the drawing we wanted to do, but we have had complaints and we must put down every little accusation of cultural appropriation, you know".

So, in the end, it's not automatical in the corporate world that if one relents on a position that equals to ad admission of guilt. Sometimes it's just more convenient in public relation and bad publicity to just take a step back even if you thing you've been doing the right thing.

There's a reason why they call it "politically correct" and not "morally correct".
What '3rd option'??!!! Go back and read my post again that you quoted. I talked about "what if that was what the artist intended." If he intended it, then sure, people can interpret in a way that offends them, whatever. However, they cannot complain that it is 'inauthentic' or 'inaccurate' or somesuch. All they can complain about is that they don't like mixing pandas and katanas. Now, if the company, in that case, wanted to change it, for business reasons, that's just a business decision. If it was purely an artwork done as art, well, its done, complain all you want, but art is art.
 

Aldarc

Legend
When designing the cultures for your setting, it's not that pastiches are inherently bad or that they must be perfectly historical, but it's important to be cognizant of the choices that you are making, why you are making them, and the possible implications that those choices may have. If you want a Hyboria-like setting, for example, that's fine, but you may want to steer clear of the racist tropes that are part of the original setting. Or when designing a setting inspired by East Asian cultures, it's important that one understands the source material and treat it with respect and not as something to be strip-mined of valuables to be commodified.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
After all you are only allowed to do that to "white" cultures...

Dredging back to an earlier post in a related thread...

Imbalance of power based on historic officially sanctioned discrimination and its less blatant descendants are things. I'm great with setting high standards for all games. But I'm most worried about the things portraying historically disenfranchised minorities.

I'm sure there are many folks with European ancestry who would like better portrayal of their ancestral cultures. I'm not sure why it almost never seems to get pushed in the US until it can be inserted in the middle of a discussion about how a minority group is portrayed. And then nothing ever seems to get pushed by the questioners until the next thread brought up about a minority group. I can't speak to how it works in other countries.
 

Derren

Hero
Dredging back to an earlier post in a related thread...
The usual cop out why its ok to be racist against white people (when you consider it to be racist to strip a culture for commodities like you put it then its racist no matter which culture).

As for why its usually not brought up. Because most people don't consider it to be a problem. And that is not something specific to people from "white" cultures, but applies also to most people from your so called minorities (as if for example the Chinese are a minority with a population size of 1 billion). Only some people want to make it into a problem to have something to fight against.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
The usual cop out why its ok to be racist against white people (when you consider it to be racist to strip a culture for commodities like you put it then its racist no matter which culture).

As for why its usually not brought up. Because most people don't consider it to be a problem. And that is not something specific to people from "white" cultures, but applies also to most people from your so called minorities (as if for example the Chinese are a minority with a population size of 1 billion). Only some people want to make it into a problem to have something to fight against.

There's also a lot of folks living in Africa and south of the US border too. I'm not sure what that has to do with what's called a minority in the US - which is the country I put at the end of the second paragraph was the one I was particularly addressing.

I have a sizable number of relatives alive who were here when the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943. A very popular tweeter was in an internment camp in WWII because they were of Japanese origin. I'm pretty sure equality didn't magically pop into being right after either. Just like the civil rights movement for African American, equal rights for women, and rights for LGBTQ+, it wasn't ancient history and has a direct impact today.

Bigotry against white folks isn't good. It's not the same in it's effect as bigotry against lots of other groups.
 


Derren

Hero
There's also a lot of folks living in Africa and south of the US border too. I'm not sure what that has to do with what's called a minority in the US - which is the country I put at the end of the second paragraph was the one I was particularly addressing.

I have a sizable number of relatives alive who were here when the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943. A very popular tweeter was in an internment camp in WWII because they were of Japanese origin. I'm pretty sure equality didn't magically pop into being right after either. Just like the civil rights movement for African American, equal rights for women, and rights for LGBTQ+, it wasn't ancient history and has a direct impact today.

Bigotry against white folks isn't good. It's not the same in it's effect as bigotry against lots of other groups.
Thats a point I brought up earlier (maybe in another thread, not sure they all look the same by now).
Its mostly not the, for example, Chinese people living in China and thus part of the Chinese culture who complain about appropriation, but Americans with Chinese roots who at best, have only spend one part of their live immersed in Chinese culture but often are 1 generation or more removed from it and only know it fleetingly, but are in the end not much more qualified to decide how Chinese people feel about OA than a random American. Yet they claim to somehow know that Chinese people are offended by OA.

You can easily see this when people claim that ethnic so and so is a minority. They are in the US, but, in the case of the Chinese, not globally and certainly not in their own countries.
Those people speak from an American perspective, belong to the American culture yet claim to be the ultimate authority about what, for them, completely foreign people from a different culture are offended by. Which makes this whole issue even more comical.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Twitter is just a method of communication used by many people of all different stripes. It doesn't decide anything, any more than a telephone does.

What happens is that some people use Twitter to express their opinions on things.
And what happens after that is self reinforcing tribalism that creates division and demands for conformity to views that develop within the tribe. It is no accident that we see more and more "you're either with me, or against us" arguments in the recent years.

That can be used to effect positive social change. It can also be used on two sides of an argument to solidify differences and create increasingly dangerous levels of conflict.

Twitter is just a tool for communication, but tools can be very dangerous.
 

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