WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Danzauker]

If you've ever watched Neon Genesis Evangelion, you might have noticed certain imagery. (If you haven't, watch it!). Here's a great quote on the subject:

There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. Because Christianity is an uncommon religion in Japan we thought it would be mysterious. None of the staff who worked on Eva are Christians. There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool. If we had known the show would get distributed in the US and Europe we might have rethought that choice.
-Kazuya Tsurumaki

If anything, I would say that we are far more sensitive to these types of issues. But that's a good thing!

That's the same way we use ninja in western pop products. Or dervishes. Or paladins. Frankly i don't understand why they should have reconsidered (and I honestly think he were not really thinking what he said anyway). They just took what they were interested in and made a story out of it. Nobody was directly offended.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Real racism, I mean. People hurt. People called names. People denied access to places and things. People deined access to culture and work. People treated like they're different just because of skin coloror country of origin. That bothers and still bothers me.

If there are folks reading a book and see the same kind of language and descriptions of their culture that was used to put down their ancestors, used as justification to deny them work, used to ostracize them and remind them of when they were ostracized, and they see that people are still making money off of said book to this very day, is that not problematic?

Are they not right to call it out?

 

[Oldtimer]

I was referring specifically to the argument about lack of symmetry. E.g. that it's ok to be wildly inaccurate with vikings, but not with samurai.

But as @Umbran said:

• It's mostly people of European descent writing this stuff.
• People of European descent are not marginalized (especially in the primary markets for these games) based on these stereotypes.

When China becomes the only superpower, and northern Europeans are barely scraping by cleaning their toilets, and most RPGs are written and played in China, and this is rationalized with a stereotype of northern Europeans as howling, illiterate savages....then we can complain about the portrayal of Vikings.

Probably to about the same reception as seen in this thread.

As a descendant of the vikings I very much take issue with that. My people have at times been dirt poor, have been taken as slaves and been spoken of with disgust. Why can't we play in this victim lottery as well?

 

[Guest 6801328]

You'd really think that in the last few decades, if this was a serious ongoing problem, there would have been more threads about it on ENWorld (or other RPG message boards), that I would have seen them when I was a regular on the WotC forums (when they had them), that in my days on Usenet in the '90's I would have seen people complaining then.

This line of argument could be (and is!) used to dismiss any attempt at change.

Every big deal has to start being a big deal at some point. We have a choice between dismissing it as nonsense because it's new, or listening to the people trying to tell us something.

In any event, I'll say it for the third time: I had friends explain to me why "oriental" was objectionable back in the 80's. I'm sure that people have complained about "Oriental Adventures" before now. But maybe this is the first time in which any of us are actually hearing it.

 

[Danzauker]

If there are folks reading a book and see the same kind of language and descriptions of their culture that was used to put down their ancestors, used as justification to deny them work, used to ostracize them and remind them of when they were ostracized, and they see that people are still making money off of said book to this very day, is that not problematic?

Are they not right to call it out?

If the book is OLD, then no. It's the past. You can and should not change or hide the past.

If the book is to be written now,things are different.

EDIT: heck, i'm even against banning something like the Mein Kampf. You can't learn if you destroy your errors.

 

[Imaculata]

I would really love to see a modern book for 5e or Pathfinder based on a far eastern campaign setting. Leave out the problematic and offensive stereotypes and language, and get a Chinese, Japanese and Korean consultant. Just ancient Korean warfare alone is fantastic material for roleplaying. And there is a treasure trove of mythological beasts out there to fill multiple Monster Manuals. For years I have wanted to see more monsters from cultures other than Europe and Greek mythology. They could take a ton of monsters from Philipino lore as well. I think this big outcry is a huge opportunity to do it right. But don't edit or remove old books.

 

[Guest 6801328]

As a descendant of the vikings I very much take issue with that. My people have at times been dirt poor, have been taken as slaves and been spoken of with disgust. Why can't we play in this victim lottery as well?

You may.

Although, if you think of it as "victim lottery" you may not be taken seriously.

EDIT: Actually, you won't be taken seriously anyway, because regardless of how northmen were regarded by the Franks and Romans and Ottomans and Anglo-Saxons, today you (we) have pretty much all the advantages in the world.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I would really love to see a modern book for 5e or Pathfinder based on a far eastern campaign setting. Leave out the problematic and offensive stereotypes and language, and get a Chinese, Japanese and Korean consultant. Just ancient Korean warfare alone is fantastic material for roleplaying. And there is a treasure trove of mythological beasts out there to fill multiple Monster Manuals. I think this big outcry is a huge opportunity to do it right. But don't edit or remove old books.

I think that would be awesome. Especially with the popularity of things like The Kingdom on Netflix.

 

[Imaculata]

As a descendant of the vikings I very much take issue with that. My people have at times been dirt poor, have been taken as slaves and been spoken of with disgust. Why can't we play in this victim lottery as well?

I think if all you take from this discussion is that people are playing the victim card just because they can... then you may be either unable or unwilling to understand the issue under discussion here.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't really see the distinction you are making. Is there, for you, any line between a group of people trying to make their voices heard, and "forcing" a company to do something? Where is that line?

Voices are heard all the time. Here, for example. You described the campaign by Daniel Kwan to pull it completely, not just for sale, but even for free, to have it available in any form whatsoever, as "Maybe WotC shouldn't continue selling it." Emphasis mine.

He is welcome to campaign for that; however, characterizing it as "Maybe they shouldn't see it," is wrong. It is a campaign to force the IP holder to remove it completely from circulation. So that it is completely unavailable. That means that if I, for example, wanted to do some research on 1e (which I do pretty often) and I lost my hardcover .... I'd be SOL in a while. There is one used copy on Amazon at $198.

I want Mr. Kwan to continue to advocate for more inclusivity in 5e, and for more books that feature Asian themes (he appears to want a "fresher take on Japan[.]").

I am not going to agree with people that seek to remove the past. The past isn't all good. But that doesn't mean we get rid of it.