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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer
Yeah, it kind of is. You're asking me to just accept your point of view at face value without any consideration on my part. No. That's not how a dialogue works.
It is nice and all to show that person's tweets saying to butt out, but does Kienna actually tweet why they think it is harmful? Or are they just trying to pull one of those "because I said so" things that parents use?

I echo their sentiment. There has been a lot of words written about this subject already, the arguments are out there, and as happy as I and others are that this is getting an inkling of mainstream attention after 35 years of what seemed like futilely screaming into the wind, people are getting tired of having to explain it over and over and over again.

Here's some places to get started:

EVERYONE: Please watch the language of the stuff you link to, not just the stuff you write yourself. I’m leaving the link here behind spoiler tags because it has some relevance.
 
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MGibster

Hero

I echo their sentiment. There has been a lot of words written about this subject already, the arguments are out there, and as happy as I and others are that this is getting an inkling of mainstream attention after 35 years of protest, people are getting tired of having to explain it over and over and over again.
I'm not demanding free labor. I objected to the idea that I should butt out of the discussion.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Here's some places to get started:
For anyone who reads that one, make sure to check out the comments section; none other than Jon Peterson, of Playing at the World fame, chimes in to make some very salient observations.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
All I want to say is: Good riddance, stuff like OA, AL-quadim and specially Maztika has always been very off-putting and I would not shed a single tear if these get lost forever. On the other hand, I worry about cultural destruction, and I wouldn't want that stuff gone if it meant other stuff I like could also go away.

Anyway this could very well be my last day on the open internet so I don't have a horse either way. Tomorrow I'll get to see whether I can even see this site let alone the D&D marketplace. Good luck to everyone and I hope this can be sorted for the greater good. Cheers
 

Before Crawford and the rest of his crew started to show up with a dozen UA surveys indicating that this is bad for the game, we used to have our supplements full of wacky subsystems just because we could. I loved (still love) that.
Sure, it is great to have subsystems.

But this subsystem has allows been put forth as part of Far Eastern rules, settings, ect. Look at the image in the DMG right next to the Honor system, for 5e. Most definitely not a European knight.

Erm but you effectively did with the Paladin code, those were the chivalric knights. They had all sorts of restrictions and rules they had to live by.
Paladins don't use the Honor system though, do they? They have oaths.

And I agree, and oath would be a great way to show a lot of this. So, why is it that every time Far Eastern rules come up, people break out the Honor System instead of adapting paladin oaths?



Because Baldur's Gate to Cormyr was like moving from the UK to Germany (it's barely 700 miles away), very similar culturally. Exotic literally means" originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign country" not your neighbour. Kara-tur is distant.
700 miles through monster infested swamps and lands in a time period where most people never went more than 20 miles from their homes?

Sounds pretty distant.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
To give you a specific example, in my native language (Italian) there is a single word denoting both eastern and oriental, so finding out that oriental has a negative connotation in US, but eastern is a (relatively?) neutral term was pretty puzzling*. I started watching the videos because I was interested in a better understanding of the issue, but most of the times I felt that they stated that something was problematic, but they failed to explain why.

* The only explanation I came up with was that given that Oriental literally means Rising, there was some association with the Rising Sun flag used by Imperial Japan, and that could be offensive due to WWII.
The term, as used in English-language discourse, has a lot to do with British colonialism and attitudes derived from it’s worldview. So I’m not really surprised if it doesn’t have nearly as much meaning to someone with a different background and with a different native language.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I wouldn't say it's the handbook definition of book burning because there are no physical objects or fire involved, but it's probably the nearest you'll get from burning digital books.
No, it really isn't.

Various print materials have been going out of print and being unavailable since the creation of the printing press. Companies have always had a right to control when and where their materials are available, and choosing to not make them available is not equivalent to destruction. The public is not entitled to constant availability.

When they use DRM to erase the thing from your hard drive, then it is like book burning. When they send jackbooted thugs into your home to take and burn your physical copy, it is like book burning.

"I might maybe want this thing some time in the unknown future, and I may not be able to buy it at that time," is not destruction of that thing.
 

Khelon Testudo

Cleric of Stronmaus
I'm not going to read 20+pages of back and forth over whether people have a right point out something is offensive to them. They do. They have a right to make a request to remove said offensive item.
Whether the owner or seller of the offensive product removes it is a judgement for them. Personally, I'm of the opinion that a foreword/notice about the context of the original and how we see it now should suffice.
 

MGibster

Hero
I'm not going to read 20+pages of back and forth over whether people have a right point out something is offensive to them. They do. They have a right to make a request to remove said offensive item.
Whether the owner or seller of the offensive product removes it is a judgement for them. Personally, I'm of the opinion that a foreword/notice about the context of the original and how we see it now should suffice.
In the 20+ pages nobody challenged the right of others to point out that something is offensive or for them to request said offensive item be taken out of circulation.
 

Voadam

Adventurer
When they use DRM to erase the thing from your hard drive, then it is like book burning. When they send jackbooted thugs into your home to take and burn your physical copy, it is like book burning.
If WotC publicly burned all hypothetical unsold stock of OA from an old warehouse that would not be book burning because they did not go into peoples homes and take home copies to burn as well?

I picture American book burning as people publicly burning books (Harry Potter, Huckleberry Finn, lewd stuff, Communist stuff, D&D, whatever) to show how much they stand against the bad/dangerous/harmful stuff inside the books.
 

No, it really isn't.

Various print materials have been going out of print and being unavailable since the creation of the printing press. Companies have always had a right to control when and where their materials are available, and choosing to not make them available is not equivalent to destruction. The public is not entitled to constant availability.
Indeed, and I never complained when WotC decided to make their old catalog unavailable, a few years ago, though I'm glad they changed their position on the matter and it's now available again.

People that pressure for books to be removed from the market because they don't like them, though? Those are more harmful than the books they hate so much. I have a big list of books I find despicable. An even bigger one of books that I think are not worth a reader's time or attention. I even have some I believe people shouldn't read because they're outright harmful, but I would never demand publishers to stop selling them.

This makes me think that maybe I should just leave this discussion. After all, the idea of people pressing a publisher in order to make books that offend them unavailable for purchase is deeply offensive to me and my culture, really (and I'm in no way talking about hate speech here). Even though it seems to be a favorite of people nowadays.
 

Khelon Testudo

Cleric of Stronmaus
Perhaps I misjudged this, based on the previous thread with all the "whaa, they're takin' my evil orcs!"

and then Giltonio says how "people shouldn't pressure for books to be removed because they don't like them". So my point stands.
 

Sadras

Hero
Paladins don't use the Honor system though, do they? They have oaths.

And I agree, and oath would be a great way to show a lot of this. So, why is it that every time Far Eastern rules come up, people break out the Honor System instead of adapting paladin oaths?
The paladin had alignment concerns, wealth and magical item restrictions, tithes...etc
The Honour system was a far better mechanic.
Or do you think Gygax was saying that Samurai are greedy bastards by not giving them the wealth limitations?
 

and then Giltonio says how "people shouldn't pressure for books to be removed because they don't like them". So my point stands.
Just to make it clear: I believe that people can use their basic liberties to organize and pressure for books they don't like to be removed from sale. But I also believe that doing so hurts some very basic tenets of morality for any liberal democratic culture. Unfortunately, it seems that liberal democracy is also falling from favor a lot these days. :rolleyes:
 

The paladin had alignment concerns, wealth and magical item restrictions, tithes...etc
The Honour system was a far better mechanic.
Or do you think Gygax was saying that Samurai are greedy bastards by not giving them the wealth limitations?
How could you possibly go from what I am saying to that?

Let us try this a second time.


Every single time in DnD, the Honor System of rules, for measuring how much honor you have with regard to society and the world, is presented as being intrinsically tied to the Far East.

This is a Stereotype. Taking the conception of the Samurai Mythos, and them being honorable warriors, and blowing it up into this massive trope for an entire region of the world.

And just like the stereotype that all Irish men are loud drunkards, or that all Spaniard men are hot-blooded wooers of women, the stereotypes that Japanese or Chinese or Vietnamese or Korean Men are all martial arts masters with an unbreakable code of honor is just that. A stereotype. And there is no reason for it.

And again, even in 5e, if you look for the honor system in the DMG, you find a picture of a Far Eastern looking man, visually indicating that these rules somehow are needed for that conception, but were not needed for the honor of European Fantasy.
 


Voadam

Adventurer
I can see the honor system as a pain point. It tries to do stereotypical samurai film/Shogun honor as an alternative alignment system. Its basically projecting that everywhere in OA even to the non-samurai parts.

I never liked mechanical alignment systems or trying to track that kind of stuff and I was not interested in roleplaying or gaming the honor system presented. I disliked it from the beginning and mostly ignored it.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I love the honor system after some hacking, but I don't use it for anything even remotely 'Eastern'. I mostly use it to help represent cultures like Victorian England where public adherence to a strict behavioral code was of primary importance to a certain segment of society. Sometimes it's useful to have a stat to represent the "do you know who I am" kind of thing. It's not useful in a lot of D&D campaigns and settings, for sure, but when its useful its really useful. The way I use it it's probably better described as reputation than honor though.

@Libramarian - 20 seconds on Google isn't a big ask is it?
 

Voadam

Adventurer
I love the honor system after some hacking, but I don't use it for anything even remotely 'Eastern'. I mostly use it to help represent cultures like Victorian England where public adherence to a strict behavioral code was of primary importance to a certain segment of society. Sometimes it's useful to have a stat to represent the "do you know who I am" kind of thing. It's not useful in a lot of D&D campaigns and settings, for sure, but when its useful its really useful. The way I use it it's probably better described as reputation than honor though.
And some people like alignment tracking mechanics. Different tastes in what you want to track.
 

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