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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
but Americans with Chinese roots who at best, have only spend one part of their live immersed in Chinese culture but often are 1 generation or more removed from it and only know it fleetingly, but are in the end not much more qualified to decide how Chinese people feel about OA than a random American.
As noted earlier - the Asian cultural experience is not the same as the Asian American cultural experience.

Most folk in Asia are not embedded within a Caucasian majority. So, those in Asia... actually don't directly experience most of the racism generated by Americans. It is Asian-Americans who feel the brunt of it. So, maybe not being in Asia isn't so much of a disqualifier. We should be respectful of both groups, you see.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
As noted earlier - the Asian cultural experience is not the same as the Asian American cultural experience.

Most folk in Asia are not embedded within a Caucasian majority. So, those in Asia... actually don't directly experience most of the racism generated by Americans. It is Asian-Americans who feel the brunt of it. So, maybe not being in Asia isn't so much of a disqualifier. We should be respectful of both groups, you see.
If it is problematic for Asian Americans but not Asians in Asia then can we stop calling whatever it is racism?
 

Derren

Hero
As noted earlier - the Asian cultural experience is not the same as the Asian American cultural experience.

Most folk in Asia are not embedded within a Caucasian majority. So, those in Asia... actually don't directly experience most of the racism generated by Americans. It is Asian-Americans who feel the brunt of it. So, maybe not being in Asia isn't so much of a disqualifier. We should be respectful of both groups, you see.
And yet its kinda hypocritical that Asian Americans complain about the depiction of Asia while the actual Asians have no say in it. Why would Asian Americans know more about Asian culture than other Americans anyway?
 
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Aren’t old men in dusty shops selling magic items ubiquitous across storytelling and culture?

For every Gremlins there is a Neverending Story.

Wandering Shop - Discworld & Terry Pratchett Wiki

Pratchett satirises the idea in the Light Fantastic too.

This is the problem I guess. People see something and assume it’s all about them without recognizing the bigger picture. All of a sudden an old man selling magic items isn’t a racist stereotype, it’s just a trope.
I cannot think of more than... one? Example where the old peddler with the mysterious magical artifacts wasn't shown as Chinese or Japanese.

Of course, part of that could be I haven't seen Neverending story in... 20 years? Never read Terry Prachet (keep meaning to, sounds like I'll enjoy it) So, it could just be coincidence. But, there are two things that make me ponder.

1) The majority of old men selling magic items seem to be from the Far East, as are many of the relics.

2) Outside of modern corporate adventurer stories I have a hard time thinking of an old Chinese man who was not a) A martial arts master, b) an old pawn shop owner, c) a chef or d) some combination of the above.

Sometimes, the details of a trope, make it a bit racist.

The usual cop out why its ok to be racist against white people (when you consider it to be racist to strip a culture for commodities like you put it then its racist no matter which culture).

As for why its usually not brought up. Because most people don't consider it to be a problem. And that is not something specific to people from "white" cultures, but applies also to most people from your so called minorities (as if for example the Chinese are a minority with a population size of 1 billion). Only some people want to make it into a problem to have something to fight against.
Not a cop out if it is true.

For example, the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Romans and Colonial Age England pretty much went out of their way to shove their cultures down as many people's throats as possible Kind of hard to turn around and say people shouldn't use that culture that they were sometimes killed for not using previously.

Same can be said of the Spanish and Dutch too.

If it is problematic for Asian Americans but not Asians in Asia then can we stop calling whatever it is racism?
Do you think Mexicans are disciminated against in Mexico, the same way they are in Texas? How about African Americans in Ethiopia compared to Manhattan?

So, an American company (WoTC) getting told to be less racist by a group of Americans who face discrimination due to their culture should instead look towards the people who don't buy their products, don't know who they are, and don't deal with the same issues?

That seems to miss the point.
 



Warpiglet-7

Explorer
Does


I’d say the privileged are those that get their way. Who is getting their way today?


If it is problematic for Asian Americans but not Asians in Asia then can we stop calling whatever it is racism?
I wonder what the implication is for America and some other nations.

we might say Japan would be able to produce products from their perspective and we would be interested. China too.

But if Americans produce a product, it has to go through 3000 steps of cultural review because it’s not a homogenous culture?

Gygax had every right to make something from his experience without apology. Don’t like it? Don’t buy it.

If the market is offended it would not sell. Right now, WOTC is banking on changes being well received. Ok. It’s your IP. Let’s see what you want to do.

But the ‘morality’ of it? All other nations can develop things for their palate but an American company has to take a worldwide survey? Absurd unless that is their intended market. What a weird double standard. I doubt Japanese companies are wringing their hands about American expats in their country being offended by their presentation of gaijin in a game.

A warning is fine but the begging for forgiveness? Christ in the morning.
 

Derren

Hero
I cannot think of more than... one? Example where the old peddler with the mysterious magical artifacts wasn't shown as Chinese or Japanese.

Of course, part of that could be I haven't seen Neverending story in... 20 years? Never read Terry Prachet (keep meaning to, sounds like I'll enjoy it) So, it could just be coincidence. But, there are two things that make me ponder.

1) The majority of old men selling magic items seem to be from the Far East, as are many of the relics.

2) Outside of modern corporate adventurer stories I have a hard time thinking of an old Chinese man who was not a) A martial arts master, b) an old pawn shop owner, c) a chef or d) some combination of the above.

Sometimes, the details of a trope, make it a bit racist.
Really, you can't think of more instances of "old, grey bearded wizard giving out magical stuff"? From Merlin in the King Arthur Disney Movie to Ready Player One where the Avatar of Halliday was an old wizard.

Not a cop out if it is true.

For example, the Ancient Greeks, the Ancient Romans and Colonial Age England pretty much went out of their way to shove their cultures down as many people's throats as possible Kind of hard to turn around and say people shouldn't use that culture that they were sometimes killed for not using previously.

Same can be said of the Spanish and Dutch too.
Same can also be said of the Chinese, Japanese, Zulus, Arabs,...
So why is it ok to do a, according to you, racist thing when the target of it are white peope?
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Do you think Mexicans are disciminated against in Mexico, the same way they are in Texas? How about African Americans in Ethiopia compared to Manhattan?

So, an American company (WoTC) getting told to be less racist by a group of Americans who face discrimination due to their culture should instead look towards the people who don't buy their products, don't know who they are, and don't deal with the same issues?

That seems to miss the point.
I think you are missing the point. If it’s racist to Chinese people then it doesn’t matter if they are in America or in China. Etc.

So If Chinese in China don’t have a problem then whatever the problem is it’s not racism.
 


Aldarc

Legend
If it is problematic for Asian Americans but not Asians in Asia then can we stop calling whatever it is racism?
I think you are missing the point. If it’s racist to Chinese people then it doesn’t matter if they are in America or in China. Etc.

So If Chinese in China don’t have a problem then whatever the problem is it’s not racism.
I don't think you have even a half-baked valid point here or grasp regarding what constitutes racism.
 


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