WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Azzy]

Each and every individual in that chain of causation has the ability to break it.

And yet it hasn't been broken. There is a direct, unbroken line to the past that has shaped the present. Burying your head in the sand in regards to this fact doesn't change it.

 

[Azzy]

Which facts?

Did you even bother to read the articles I linked?

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

And yet it hasn't been broken. There is a direct, unbroken line to the past that has shaped the present. Burying your head in the sand in regards to this fact doesn't change it.

I'm not arguing whether is has been broken or not. I cannot substantiate that claim one way or another.

 

[Umbran]

The superposition of stereotypes onto individuals is an offense worth of ridicule.

But happens all the time in the real world. All. The. Time.

The fact that it is worthy of ridicule does not mean it doesn't have an impact, and your assertion doesn't mean that they don't make lives crappy.

 

[JEB]

So, no, deliberately using the noble savage trope is not okay. At all.

Serious question: Does not the barbarian class in D&D basically evoke the "noble savage" trope? They are pretty heavily based on Conan.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Did you even bother to read the articles I linked?

Yes. I always read articles when asked. They showed how someone might go about mapping fiction onto reality. Which was fine. But they failed to explain how mapping fiction onto reality is a logical thing to do. Likewise, they fails to explain how integrating one's identity with that of a group is a sound premise.

 

[Bertil]

As I’ve written before, I’m all for disclaimers etc.

But when people actually argue for cultural isolation and segregation, with cultural consultant ”diplomats” being the judges of what cultural material - and in what form - are allowed to cross cultural borders, that makes me really scared.

It is the same rethorics that the alt-right parties here in Europe use, and I can’t understand how one at the same time can argue for anti-racism and cultural insulation with tight gatekeeping. In my opinion, a multicultural society, with free and open cultural cross-fertilization, is necessary to crush opressing structures, including structural racism, and create understanding between groups of people.

As for the four points to identify cultural appropriation from many pages ago, they would essentialy put a stop to all artistical endevours. The core of artistic work is the creative expression out of the artists total sensorial input over time. Today with streaming and social media, and (during non-Corona times) global travelling, it’s impossible to not get inspiration from many cultural expressions, and even more impossible to make a meticulous examination of every possible trace of cultural appropriation as from the four-point guide.

Under global capitalism, I can’t really ser how it even would be possible - or wanted - to regulate that.

Now, there are flagrant culturally expressed problems that reproduce and reinforce the bad situation for oppressed people. But in my opinion thats a material and political problem to solve, by both legislation, education and adequate funding for emancipatory purposes. The solution can never be to gag writers, musicians, painters, sculptors or poets. Or rpg makers.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

But happens all the time in the real world. All. The. Time.

The fact that it is worthy of ridicule does not mean it doesn't have an impact, and your assertion doesn't mean that they don't make lives crappy.

Yes. It does happen all the time, which is extremely unfortunate. Which is why I advocate for carefully assessing others' opinions before determining whether they contain knowledge, justified belief, or unjustified belief and then reacting accordingly on those grounds.

 

[MGibster]

You may find it ludicrous, but you don't get to tell those that have suffered from such racist and imperialist views how they should feel.

Where are you getting the impression that I'm telling anyone how they should feel?

Seriously, your opinion carries so much less weight than thiers because you have never been affected by what they have. I mean, it's like telling someone that suffers from depression to "just try to think more positively". It's patronizing at best.

If my opinion carries less weight then it stands to reason my actions do as well. So I suppose I can just use the trope with impunity.

 

[MGibster]

First . . . good luck creating your noble savages without evoking Native American culture. I suppose it's possible, but . . .

Are the Cimmerians, the people from whence Conan hails from, anything like Native Americans? Would a Goth, Visigoth, or Gaul make an appropriate noble savage for a campaign centered on Rome or do they resemble too closely Native Americans?

Second . . . your NA player reads about your noble savage culture, and recognizes the exact same language that has been used to stereotype their people for centuries. They feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, but embarrassed to share their feelings with the group. They just leave, and likely do not return to the D&D hobby figuring . . . it's a hobby by white folks for white folks, it isn't for me.

Or he reads it, decides it doesn't interest him so he makes a wizard, sticks around, and has fun.

So, no, deliberately using the noble savage trope is not okay. At all.

Like all tropes, it just depends on how it's used. It's okay if you don't like it but that doesn't mean the trope shouldn't ever be used.