WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Aldarc]

The slippery slope is strong in this thread.

 

[Orius]

The title "Oriental Adventures" itself was probably meant as a call back to the pulp fiction Gary was fond of, where the term generally referred to stories that took place in Asia anywhere from the Middle East to the Far East, and took place in any period of history. Not only that, it was published because Gary felt D&D should reflect cultures other than Western culture.

It bothers me that the term Oriental is being seen as a slur, because in origin it isn't. Orient and occident are terms for east and west ultimately derived from the Latin words for sunrise and sunset. It probably doesn't help that the term Occidental has fallen into disuse over the last century. It shouldn't be a slur, and it disgusts me if ignorant fools have made it such. But if it hasn't, then something else if going on, and I find it hard to properly talk about in without violating the board's rules on politics.

Open a dialogue this should.
Presumably. Asian fans have researched quite a bit. By the reading this book. Before making that decision. In that case they should be listened.
A warning should be on there. Regardless.

What the hell is with the weird syntax? Are you affecting some sort of stereotypical Engrish accent? Because if you are, that is honestly more offensive than anything
TSR published 35 years ago.

 

[aco175]

Can't wait to see what 6e will look like.

 

[Reynard]

There are a whole lot of white people in this thread admitting to not being bothered by the term and therefore okay with it being used, and offended that it might be removed.

The term fort his is white fragility. People think that because they like the book Oriental Adventures that it somehow targets them as racists for the book to be called out as having racist tropes in it. It's not. it is saying we can and should do better.

Frankly I am quite disappointed in EN World as it relates to these issues. I know the forum goers generally skew older than the wider visitors and D&D fans in general, but even GenXers and Boomers should be able to look in the damn mirror and realize maybe we embraced some problematic elements in the past.

 

[Sadras]

The slippery slope is strong in this thread.

Because the slope is becoming ever more slippery with each passing day.

 

[Imaculata]

There are a whole lot of white people in this thread admitting to not being bothered by the term and therefore okay with it being used, and offended that it might be removed.

The term fort his is white fragility. People think that because they like the book Oriental Adventures that it somehow targets them as racists for the book to be called out as having racist tropes in it. It's not. it is saying we can and should do better.

I think this sort of oversimplification is neither useful nor constructive in the context of a discussion. You didn't bother to ask any of us why some of us feel the way we do. You also seem to ignore genuine worries for censorship.

I think we should bare in mind that the word 'oriental' has not always been offensive, and many of us might not be aware why it is considered offensive today. We should also bare in mind that not all of us are native english speakers, and as such the word may have a very different meaning and context to those people.

 

[Dire Bare]

The slippery slope is strong in this thread.

Yes, yes it is. I had mixed feelings about starting this thread. I honestly found the article and issue interesting and relevant to recent discussion here on ENWorld and in society in general. But I knew this would draw out the trolls and the gatekeepers. Sigh, looks like I was right in spades.

Most of the ignorance shown in this thread is from folks who didn't bother to even read the article that I linked. Maybe before you post again, read the article this time guys?

If you think this is an example of so-called white outrage . . . you are wrong. A group of Asian gamers are making this request of WotC.

If you think this is an example of WotC bowing to PC pressure, you are at least premature, as WotC hasn't responded yet to this request. So, wrong again. And if you are the kind of person who tosses around terms like "PC" or "SJW" when discussing making D&D more inclusive, I've got no respect for you. None. Gah, the book burning references in this thread are what I truly find offensive.

If the FACT that the term "oriental" is found offensive by Asian-Americans and the FACT that Asian-American gamers, and others, have found the stereotypes of Asian culture in the 1E "Oriental Adventures" problematic is news to you . . . well, I understand that. It's easy to miss stereotypes and racism when you don't live that experience. But now you know. And this issue is not new, folks have expressed concerns with this product for years. We talked about it right here on ENWorld back when the 3E "Oriental Adventures" was released. There's a reason why the book didn't make it to 4th or 5th editions. If you continue in your belief that this isn't really a problem . . . then you are a part of the problem.

If you think this is all about one word, about the title . . . you are wrong. The word IS a problem, but so are the stereotypes of Asian culture riddled throughout the book. There is literally NO ONE who is only upset about the use of just the word "oriental" in the title.

Not ALL Asians or Asian-Americans find the term "oriental" offensive. And like most racial slurs, it didn't start out as an offensive slur, but became one with how the word was used against Asian peoples. So put your dictionaries away, please. The use of "oriental" as a racist slur is somewhat outdated now, but still found offensive by SOME, not ALL. But how many Asians does it take being offended before it becomes wrong to use? @tommybahama I hear you and respect your experience that you don't find the term offensive, but you don't represent all Asians. Neither do I, I'm as white as they come. But I listen.

For those dismissing the concerns others have about racial slurs and stereotypes . . . disagree, fine. Dismiss? Screw you. Our hobby doesn't need your selfish gatekeeping.

For those criticizing others for their grammar and syntax . . . double screw you. You do realize that many folks who post here on ENWorld do not have English as their first language, right? We're not all from America and the English Commonwealth. And more than a few us who are struggle with effective writing. Mocking that . . . Christ.

For those who think WotC's best option is to ignore the problem and it will go away . . . not bloody likely. Regardless of your position on the issue, WotC will need to deal with this. And it's unlikely they will simply leave it alone. Neither should they.

Like @Reynard I'm disapointed with ENWorld of late. White fragility indeed. That's a relatively new term for me, but it fits perfectly. There's a lot of good folks who post here, but everytime we try to discuss making D&D more inclusive, the trolls and gatekeepers crawl out. I think I need a break from this place for a while.

 

[Sadras]

That same thinking is even rules that are active today. If you look in the DMG, you’ll find rules for an honor system that specifically calls out Asian cultures:

If your campaign involves cultures where a rigid code of honor is part of daily life, consider using the Honor score as a means of measuring a character’s devotion to that code. This ability fits well in a setting inspired by Asian cultures, such as Kara-Tur in the Forgotten Realms.

It’s one of those rules that you might not give a second glance to, until you realize that stereotype is straight out of an Orientalist’s playbook. The concept gets cooked into the game and we think ‘oh yes, obviously Asians, very honorable’ and it’s been there for editions. That’s the kind of thing that Daniel Kwan and DM Steve are highlighting.

Oh yes they must be right about its offense because they are Asian.

EDIT: And apparently Asian RPGers who may not agree with them, their voices are completely ignored.

 

[Imaculata]

And again I should stress that fear for censorship is a genuine concern, and should not be brushed under the carpet quite so easy. Plus there is in my opinion value in wider and more diverse representation in D&D, which is what drew players to the book in the first place.

We're living in a time where people are angrily pulling down statues, including statues of people that are not controversial figures at all. It is not a big stretch to fear that publishers could restrict access to these books in a panic reaction, in light of the current political climate.

If I want to include east Asian monsters, classes or equipment in my campaign, I want to be able to access that material, regardless of its tropes and title. And in that context these books do have value to a lot of players.

 

[Xenonnonex]

If Asian fans are reacting negatively to this. Perhaps open a dialogue with them. Instead of doubling down and saying this is not offensive. Then going on a rant how this is the end of free expression. And that doing this is censorship.
Times change. The world changes. Things change for the better. Things change because we know better. Do not persuade me otherwise.